Feedback isn’t always neat—and it definitely isn’t always easy. For some, it triggers that inner whistle from a spaghetti western: something’s coming, and it might not be good. But what if we treated feedback as a skill—one we could practice, fumble through, and get better at?
In this episode of Feedback Fix, Collette Revere sits down with Suzanne Puett, Enterprise Change Management Lead at Nordic Global (and her former boss). Together, they dig into the messy, emotional reality of giving and receiving feedback—and how we can create environments where feedback is less scary and more meaningful.
In this episode, you’ll hear:
Whether you’re leading change, managing teams, or just trying to get better at hard conversations, Suzanne’s reflections offer something real and refreshing.
Watch the episode on YouTube or listen on Spotify or Apple.
Collette: You welcome to feedback fix where we get real about the messy conversations that move us forward. We are a live podcast, which means no scripts, no do overs, just unfiltered, honest conversations happening as they unfold. I'm Collette Revere, and today I'm sitting down with Suzanne Puitt, Organizational Change Management lead at Nordic global, my former boss and current boss, B, O, S, S, Suzanne, I am so happy to be here with you today.
Susanne: Me too. Me too, talking about one of our favorite topics, too.
Collette: Yeah, I know. So what are you working on right now?
Susanne: So I was consulting for like five plus years, and I'm thrilled to actually be internal in house at Nordic global, doing change management because of the being able to see things from beginning to end and actually build those really deep relationships that enable change management to get done. So yeah, I'm thrilled. I'm thrilled. That's
Collette: Cool. So what are you doing with our for whatever you can share, what are you doing with the Nordic global it's not a company I'd heard of until I saw it on your profile.
Susanne: Yeah. So they are, we are a end to end it, technology company specifically designed and working with healthcare. Okay, so hospitals, regional, all those kinds of things. So it has kind of deep, deep purpose, deep meaning, deep, deep care behind all of the work, which is really, really nice it is to build a healthier world so and doing that through technology and people,
Collette: Beautiful. How cool to actually work for a place that aligns with kind of what your heart's mission is anyway.
Susanne: Yeah, yeah. I'm loving it. I've only been there for three months, but I'm totally loving it.
Collette: That's awesome, yeah. And I love that. We have a special guest behind you. Piper, yes, yes.
Susanne: We have a lot will also be joining and chiming in. I'm sure
Collette: That's cute. I see a tail on the other side. Okay, so you mentioned feedback is one of our favorite things. It is. You have taught me so much about feedback, and it's something I want to get into later. I would love I know you're, um, I would love to know what is your first reaction to the word feedback.
Susanne: Do you have you ever seen the movie, The Good, the Bad and the Ugly? No,
Collette: I haven't seen it, but I've heard, I know don't.
Susanne: It's a classic Clint Eastwood, but it has this theme song that, you know, it's this whistle. It's like a foreboding, just like you know something, and that's what I hear in my head every single time. And I've thought about this because it's, it's really for a couple reasons. One is feedback. Really can be extremely good and helpful and positive, and it can really be miserable and off the mark and not helpful and detrimental, which kind of goes to the thing of, it's a skill, right? I mean, it is just a skill that that you have to learn and practice and be clumsy over and giving and receiving for, you know, it's, it's that two sided coin, yeah, that two sided coins.
Collette: I was thinking that too, when you were talking about a skill, I think I feel like most often Dave Holden, who's on the call, chimed up and he said, Tumbleweed. So he relates you were saying that. I think a lot of times we talk about feedback being a skill in terms of giving feedback, and we talk about that a lot, but I don't know how often really talk about receiving feedback as a skill. And I totally agree with you. I think it's not something that's natural for us to be just open to and okay with it feels. I don't know what would you describe. The feeling of receiving feedback when you know you're going to receive some and you don't know what it's going to be,
Susanne: Yeah, when you don't know what it's going to be, when someone says so you open to some feedback, or I've got some feedback for you. The first thing is, always, is that you scrunch up and you get that, that little boulder in your belly, because you don't know, and I've really worked hard to kind of change my attitude about that, because I think there's so much value in it when people do it well. And so I almost have this when somebody says, can give you some feedback, I'm like, Can you do it well? If you do it well, then we can talk,
Collette: If only, if only people could even self evaluate on that. You know, yeah, yeah. So what do you think that? So I know what it is for me, and I'll answer this question too, but I'm just wondering for you, that boulder in the belly, the constriction, what do you think is the biggest fear? What is that like? What is happening? Do you think?
Susanne: I think it's the fear? It's such a good question, Collette, and I want you to answer after me. I'm not sure if this is the for me. It's probably like, this fear of being seen. Like, really, like, right? Oh, oh, crap, they're gonna they've seen me for what I really am. And you know what I mean? I guess I it's, it's so I think we all have so many experiences with feedback that we thought was irrelevant or nasty or came from a bad place or clumsy, you know? I think, yeah, I don't know. I'm kind of rambling, but, but, no, I think that's What do you think?
Collette: Yeah, no, I totally relate to that. I feel that too, that it's kind of this fear of, I'm there's something either wrong with me or not good enough. Yeah, and I'm doing everything I can to be good enough. And if you see something that's not right, if I'm not doing a good job doing good enough, then shit. Now, what am I gonna do? I'm already doing my very best,
Susanne: Yeah, especially for high performers, or for anybody, I think, yeah, yeah. You know, it's interesting, because I think there's, I think, I think about kind of four different kinds of feedback. So the first one's, like that, super easy, you know, positive strokes, uh, is, you know, good, not just good job, but you did a great job of that presentation, because you were super prepared, and the leaders really heard you in a book, like that. If we knew that was coming, our reaction would be very, very different, right?
Collette: Yeah, totally.
Susanne: But then there's the kind of The Good, the Bad and the Ugly one with the tumbleweeds day of to your point, and that is that I didn't meet expectations. And that always feels bad, even though I know we can't always meet expectations or exceed expectations, or, you know, whatever, and then I think that the feedback to me that's exceptionally hard to both give and receive is what I would call relational feedback. And it's that part that says our relationship is off, and that is it, you know, workplace relationship is off, and in some way, wherever that is right. So it's almost like, if I think about there's, I don't know if you saw that show, and there's a book called, like, Water for Chocolate. And Water for Chocolate is that, that phrase from from Mexico that says emotions are boiling right there, they're like, getting intense. And that's the really hard part, that to both give and to receive is when it when there's something like at stake, like a relationship at stake, feels even like to me. I mean, that's the absolute biggest and hardest to give and to receive. Yeah, I think it's funny because Dave's on the phone. Of my all time favorite bosses ever, who we all know I won't name is she was the, I think, probably the first person I ever gave relational feedback to at work, and absolute hand, hands down, the best boss I ever had. And was the queen of idea generation, right? Had, like so many ideas and just things, just, oh, we should do this. We should do this. We should this. And you get all excited about all of them, and then the mind would change and or the circumstance would change. And so for me and the team, it kind of spun us up a lot, and it felt frantic. And I, I finally was like, This is not okay, like, I can't operate in this environment. And that was a relationship feedback piece that that had, I felt had to be given, and was scary as hell to give. Right? Like, how do you do that? Number one, it's up, right? So, so often when we talk about feedback, we're thinking, it's to my direct reports or whatever, but feedback is up and down and sideways and and peripheral. And, you know, I mean, it's like, you know, all these places. And so I was so stressed over, how do I, how do I have this relational feedback thing? And luckily for me, I care deeply about this person. And so my intention, right, when we talk about intention, I'm totally rambling, but sometimes when we talk about intention with feedback, it's growth, and for me, there is this element of sometimes it's not about the other person. Sometimes, especially with relational feedback, it's not about even their growth. It's about fixing this environment because I am miserable, or it is impacting how I work, and so that's a really different kind of mindset to be in and giving feedback, and feels even more high pressure. And we so often, I think, don't give that kind of feedback. Yeah, if we did how much, how better our work environment would be, and our teams would be stronger and more cohesive because we were doing that kind of real talk and getting messy as you getting real and getting messy with feedback. And I think I said something like, you know, I'm not going to do this well, so give me, give me grace. But this is really important, and I the I still remember these words to the day, and I have other feedback examples or later, but, but this whole thing of I said I need, I need you and the team needs you to be stickier. Need to be sticky. Remember this, it was,
Collette: I totally remember this.
Susanne: I need you to be sticky because we are just like, you know, we're just, we're just flailing around and getting really spun up and putting out a lot of energy. And kudos to her, because she could receive feedback, and she immediately went into problem solving mode of, okay, what do we do? How do you help me? How do I help you? How do I help the team? How do we? How do we, you know, I get it. I do that. She totally owned it like immediately. And it was amazing. And we had a great discussion. And we had had came up with, you know, is this a sticky idea like that? Like we had phrases of, you know, kind of helping me, helping her, and her going, this isn't really a sticky idea, you know what I mean. So, yeah, words that really helped, and our relationship got, which was already incredibly strong, got even stronger. And that's why I think that idea of relational feedback is just so talked about.
Collette: Also, you know the difference, you have the difference. I think a lot of people don't have the categories of, oh, this is really, this is feedback about our relationship, and this is feedback about your work. It's like, I do think that there's this transactional component to relationships and the relational component to relationships, but at work, sometimes we like to pretend that there's just a transactional component. Feedback is feedback, and it's about what you're doing in our transaction. But there's always this underlying relationship whether it's good or bad, and the fact that you have the insight that that is the issue, it isn't the UN stickiness, it then becomes the trust in you. To be a good leader for me, so that I can lead my team for you. And you know, it's it becomes deeper than that. So I think the fact Well, you were both my favorite bosses, I was unbelievably lucky to work for both of you. And, yeah, I can see how you two could have that conversation and come out, even though it was difficult, I know it wasn't easy, because I remember working with you. You were practically unflappable. Suzanne, this is part of like I learned so many things from you. I swear I tried to be you for a short time and realize I couldn't do it. It doesn't work. Only Suzanne can be Suzanne.
Susanne: Thank God there's only one of them.
Collette: Laugh, right? You have incredible disarming power, and you're wicked smart, and you do seem unflappable, and the times that I saw you get really soft and mushy and emotional were the times where there was it things started to impact your relationship with people like that was As an area for you where it was just intolerable. Something had to be done when it when it got to that point,
Susanne: Yeah, yeah. Thank you. First of all, Collette, you know that that team was so freaking amazing, number one, and I've never thought about that. What it does, I think so many times when, when things get bad enough right where you have to go like, this is it's why I go like. I literally keep a sheet of paper that has like, here's the things to remember when you're giving feedback, and here's the things to do when you're like to because I, you know, I have these conversations a lot in my as a change practitioner, number one, you have constantly giving people feedback and coaching and doing all kinds of and getting it and the very first thing that I when I I try to remember is to know my intention and to categorize it, just like you said, is it? Is it straight up developmental? Is it, is it, is there a gap in my identifying a gap in my do I need to give feed forward, you know, and go. Let's forget that. Let's What are you going to do differently moving forward? Or is it relationship like, really go, what? What do I want out of this conversation? Is it about the other person? Is it about me? Is it about us? Is it like, I don't know. There's so much value in doing that, because it puts you in the right headspace to have the conversation first of all, especially if it's up or sideways, yeah, but, but equally down, you know, to with your team, but, but it really changes to go, what do I actually want out of This? Out of this conversation just becomes so important, yeah, to me, it sets the stage, because then I can, then I know how to frame it right. I can frame it up right and use the right word my you know the words that I know people can hear. And I once had somebody say, we need to remove the F word entirely.
Collette: Feel, what's the F word? Feedback, oh,
Susanne: We need to remove the F word completely from our vocabulary, because we have so much baggage with it, yeah, that we can, we can still have those kinds of conversations without going. I need to give you some feedback, right? Because we can. So anyway, I just think that there's some I mean, it's an interesting concept, but when I think about the best feedback that I've ever gotten, it hasn't been when someone says, I have feedback for you. Yeah, that's not how it starts.
Collette: So I want to ask you something now I don't know if you're going to even be able to answer, because I feel like, well, I don't want to set you up for failure here, but I feel so naturally to you that you that that it's not really a process. But you know you talked about going into a conversation knowing what you wanted from it. How do you. Figure out what you want. I mean, what is the if you could share a process around that? Because I think that's can be complicated sometimes. How do you figure out what you want from a conversation?
Susanne: That's a really good question. I have those buckets. Where is this? Is my intention behind having this conversation to help someone, help them get over a hurdle? Is it to for a better successful outcome? Is it because I'm impacted in a way, I have to bring about like, and that's really, you know, it's, it's those categories that help me go, what's my intention? Is it for the other person, or is it for me? Both are very, very valid, yeah. And I think so often we, we, I know it's taken me forever to get to kind of this place in my career, my experience, and I've had so many great models of feedback, of people who give feedback really, really, really well, you know, same boss I had, vividly remember the, you know, the executive leaders going, oh my god, she could tell you to basically go f off. And you would just want to hug her, because she just ripped you a new one. And you're like, Okay, what are we gonna do next? You know, and it's that skill of having good intentions, like, I think just so dialed into that. So that intention thing, I don't know, I don't know, what's your process?
Collette: Yeah, gosh. I mean, it is a hard question, isn't it? I What's interesting is, like, so I'm not evading this question, I promise, but I feel like when I heard you talking, I heard you talking a lot about, can somebody give me feedback well? And I do want to, like, dig into that too. But for me, I'm maybe it's like, my codependency, but I'm always like, focus more on the other person. I think I do have this fear of being seen, whatever that means not even seen. But, you know, I think my fear is that I'm missing something like that. There's a big old, you know, nasty boil on my nose, and everybody can see it, but I I'm missing it. I'm not seeing it. And so that fear, and I think, at least for me, and this is no offense to my family, my mom, I think this is for a lot of people, it goes back to, I remember just growing up and being a kid and just being free and doing what you do, and then kind of getting in trouble for it, or getting feedback that that's not okay, or that's not appropriate, whatever it is, but just kind of that clipping of freedom and kind of the almost like shaping you into something more acceptable or appropriate or whatever that is. And you know, I feel that when I get feedback, even now, I do find it helpful. I find it hard to receive, but I at the end of the day, usually find that I'm happy that I received it, you know. So that's a long way around that, but that's like my experience. So your experience sounds more focused on the person who's giving you the feedback and kind of a skill level there some sort of, is it the intent? Does that just go back to intent? Or is there more than that?
Susanne: That's a great you know, I think it's, I think it goes back to intent. And I was kind of being facetious about, you know, can you give it? Well, I think if somebody came to me, I know if someone came to me and said, this is hard, and I may be, I may not do this. Well, yeah, because it's hard, it's hard to give feedback, right? Yeah, I appreciate that kind of vulnerability going into an exceptionally vulnerable conversation, right? So you don't have to be necessarily skilled, but your intent has to be there, and for for me to not just always hear it, but you know, feedback is feedback. Can I have to? We all have to make that decision of, is it good? Is it valid? Is it I think the one question I try to ask myself, even when I go, okay, whatever like is, what would it mean to me if this was true? Okay, if that makes sense, like getting that feedback and going, I don't know if I agree with that, but going, what would it? What would it? What would it mean if it was true? Makes me kind of go, okay, makes it a little more receiving. And, you know, maybe there's a gift, a hidden gift, in this that I am sounding like all feedbacks just miserable, and I don't go across that way at all. But feedback is hard, getting it and so there's like those you know, is it valid? Is it? What would it mean, if it what would it What would it mean, if it was true? Is there a gift in this for me? Do I want to take action on this, and do I need help? Is kind of that last thing, right? Because maybe it's something to your point. I didn't know I had this giant oil on my face. And so I need visibility, right? I need someone else to be that mirror for me. And how, how? How can I have that help that I need to actually internalize this feedback and make it into something that changes and helps me grow.
Collette: I'm just you are so wise. You are You are so wise. And I do love that question of it's a beautiful question, what if this is what if this is true? At the very least, it's likely true for the person who's saying it, right? So, like, the truth is one person's truth might not be another person's, but it's in some reality this Yeah, probably true in somebody's reality. And so that's I love that question, because it doesn't mean that you have to own it. It just means that you have to hear it in order to properly evaluate it, like really receive it. Yes, that makes it palatable.
Susanne: Yeah, I have to consider it at least as potentially true, because it's true for one person. It could be true for a lot of people, or maybe it's just flat out the truth. You know, it's way bigger, and I didn't see it coming at all, yeah, yeah. But it switches my mindset and makes it easier to think instead of, you know, sometimes you hear something you're like, that is so You're so wrong. That is just not helpful, you know, and you just totally dismiss it. I think that's the other thing too. With feedback is, is, you know, you said something in your last podcast that I loved, of like, I'm holding sacred space, and I'm not ready to hear anything negative today or whatever. Yeah, and, and we don't always have the choice to do that. Sometimes, right? We may have choice to do that. It's a great boundary to have. Sometimes it's not possible. We can certainly ask for it. But I think that that thing of not responding initially, and go and, you know, the simple kind of, thank you. I really want to think through this before I respond. And, you know, can I do that like it's an opportunity for us to model what good receiving looks like.
Collette: Yeah. And I also heard, like a here when you talk about how to start it out, which I totally agree, is I feel the same way when somebody comes and they have some humility, not as if I know everything, and I'm about to impart some wisdom to you, which we have both been on the receiving end of that from well meaning people, but also people with kind of, maybe a lack of self awareness. And I do feel like, yeah, it's more difficult to receive from somebody who has an approach like that. There's a certain humility involved in saying I might not do this really well, like, just admission of imperfection, I guess.
Susanne: Yeah, yeah, just the whole experience too, yeah. I mean, I wish more people would do that, even, even when it's, like, straightforward, like, I expected this, and here's what I got. But I think if you know, that's hard feedback to say to, I mean, that that you know, which seems pretty straightforward, and to go, you know, this is, this is hard. This is hard for me. It's hard. It's hard to say. It's, I mean, I I think having a few kind of one liners that you can have in those situation when it is really tough, right? Is super helpful. Also, I'm a fan of, like, you know, I mean, of little lists. And I mean, if you saw my office And here's, I mean, like, you know, I've got all this stuff and doing that specifically with feedback, I think is something, you know, it's almost like, how do we memorialize, how do we memorize our process? How do we so that we're not fumbling every time?
Collette: Yeah, talking with you about it. There's just this sense Suzanne that it's sacred. It is sacred. It's about it's between two people. The context of relationship is always there. It's never not about that. Yes, you know it's, yeah,
Susanne: There's something that gets me to when I hear people go, it's all about the growth of the other person. And when I put, you know, I kind of like, yes, and that has a touch of that superiority that you were talking about, that I know what's best for you. Thing, yeah, it's why I love feed forward, in particular, when I think about the different types of feedback and this, you know, and thinking about about coming on to your podcast, I was like, God, what do I have to say about feedback? I, you know, I don't know what I have to say about feedback. And so I've done some soul searching around it, and and a couple things have come up for me. One is that those kind of you know that intention thing that I said, but also the power of questions that are used to bring out the person's own feedback on themselves, right? I mean, it's like, we know, I think you said this in your last part, like, I know when I screw up, you know, like, I don't mean, in fact, it actually helped me that much when somebody says, Oh, you know you could have done that better. Like, I know, I know, I know. It just makes it more obvious and more Eek, right? Yes, but, but when someone says in a feed forward kind of fashion, how do you think that went? What could you? What did you? What do you think you did? Really great, you know, what was the thing that you're really proud of? What's the thing that you would do differently next time? I'm not asking about your mistake, really, right? Yeah? Like, oh, my energy was low, or my whatever, you know. I mean, it can be a whole different, a whole plethora of things, but that notion of the to me, the power of a good question, yeah, that evokes that internal wisdom that we all have. We all have that internal wisdom. How can I help that person get there? What's the right question where they arrive at it, if they haven't already? And yeah, you know what I mean. Yeah, that's more coachy, I guess, than quote feedback. But yeah,
Collette: I like that. I've been on the receiving end of that done well and also not done well. I've been on the receiving end of that before where somebody is like, I know they have something to tell me, and they're trying to get me to say it first. And I'm like, Oh God, please don't ask me another question. Just tell me what you want to say, give me your perspective, because that becomes painful to go through this practice of like, oh man, you have something you want to say, but you want me to say it first, but I don't know what it is. So can we just cut to the chase, and when it's done well, it doesn't feel like that. It does feel like a supportive person who's asking you thoughtful questions for you to reflect, not that they have an agenda outside of that. You know,
Susanne: Yes, I think of like my brother's the king of great questions, and I all he's like my go to person where I call and I go, you know, my boss, you know, whatever, I've got this peer in there, whatever, and, and usually one of his first question is, do you think, do you think you have a part in that? Or no,
Collette: Man, that's a good question.
Susanne: It's all he says. And then I go, Oh, I've got a part it, you know? Like, or No, hell no, I don't have a part of it, you know what I mean. And then he can just, and then he can give me that primes the pump for me to be receiving of his thoughts also, right? Yeah. I mean, it's a weird I don't know. I just think that the questions that challenge you, to think a smidge more, yeah, so true, and to look at responsibility your own part, and whatever the dynamic is that's happening, it's hard. And yeah, you know, that's why, that's the power of time, I think too of In reflecting on on the feedback, like you said, I love that you that you pushed a smidge back all that, and when there's that can be done poorly to you, because I can see that and that can feel like, just, oh my God, just, are you kidding me? Like, you know, in my directness, I'd probably go, it seems like you've got something you want to totally say.
Collette: That's probably why, if you haven't been on the receiving end of that, that's probably why there you're like, What? What are we doing?
Susanne: Just tell me
Collette: That's terrible. So I want to know so you've already told me about a feedback experience, but something tells me that is not the most powerful feedback experience for you, although I know it was a power, I truly remember where we were in the office that day. You know, I remember that day, and it was but so I want to hear your story about the most powerful feedback, and as much as you can just try to take us there as if it is happening in the present, right? So like, where are you, what are you thinking? What are you feeling? What's going on around you?
Susanne: I honestly, I have so many examples of feedback that was hard to hear and really, really meaningful, really meaningful, all in the same time and and altered my moving forward. One that comes up because I still, I'm still working on this is I, as you know, Collette, I really like to put my thoughts down on paper first, and usually that means that they're pretty fleshed out by the time I show them to someone else. And, and I also like to think of myself as very collaborative and, and sometimes that doesn't feel collaborative when I go like, Hey, we're going to work on this project. And let me show you this 20 slide PowerPoint of the whole thing all figured out. Now you poke holes in it, you know what I mean. And I was totally unaware that this was the way I do things I like, totally oblivious to it. And I had an employee who said, who, like, very bravely, very bravely, said, I thought we were going to do that together. And this feels like you already have it done, and you kind of do that a lot. And I, I was, like, devastated. I was it's not who I want to be seen right at all in that form. And totally dead on, absolutely true.
Collette: When did you so I just want to stop you for a second in that moment when you heard it, did you feel like, did you have this flash of Oh my gosh? This is true. Okay? Thank you for your honesty.
Susanne: No, no. It took me a minute, maybe 24 hours, to get there. Um, no, for sure, because I was like, No, I'm collaborative. This is why I brought it to you to go, let's collaborate. I was not able to see that, that that people, that that wasn't collaboration, that was that was something less than collaboration. And I don't even remember how I arrived at like, Oh, my God, I so do that. Probably lots of reflection. It may be some glasses of wine or something.
Collette: There might have been a glass of wine in there, probably. So what was your first rate? So you're hearing it. Do you have one of these out of body experiences where you're like, be cool, be cool. Be cool. Try to listen, but still be cool. Like, are you just trying to keep it together, or what? What was going on for you?
Susanne: I think I it was kind of maybe mid career for me. And so my my first thought was like, Oh my gosh. This is so wrong. This is not this is this person who just wants credit for stuff that they're, I mean, like, I like, Okay, you want credit for the work. Or, you know, I went dark, yeah, like, I went dark and, and I, I, I remember being kind of that moment where they and they did it beautifully. I mean, it was, it was clunky, but appropriately clunky, right when you're giving your boss feedback, and that notion of, you know, let me think on this took me a minute to get there because I had to, like, totally chastise them in my brain. First about, you know,
Collette: Sometimes that's the process right
Susanne: I wish that I could always not have that part of my process, but sometimes it's part of my process. And then it was I, you know, that thing of, what would it, what would it mean to me if this was true? And it was that question, what would, what would it mean to me if this was true? And the answer that came back in my head was, I am, I would be devastated if this was true, and no one wants to be devastated, right? And so it was kind of that thing of let me can, let me, let me think on this, because I I don't want to have a knee jerk reaction, because if you could hear what's in here, anyway, whenever I came to the conclusion it was pretty, I mean, you know, relatively fast. I don't remember how long it was, but of like, no, it not only is it true and I am devastated, this is something I can change. Yeah, and in that coming to that place felt really good and I went back to this person and said, You know what? I don't I don't even remember how I responded to you when you gave me that. It was really hard to hear. And you were dead. You know, you don't need validation of your correctness on this, but
Collette: That's such a gift though, Suzanne, and I think I've seen you do that for me, and I've seen you do that for other people too, where you will verbalize, yeah, you'll validate other perspectives and say, you know, I missed this, or I didn't get this right, or I was wrong. And that is so powerful because it doesn't happen often in a professional environment. I think people are afraid to do that. They're afraid that they I mean, just like us with the big boils on our nose, they're afraid that they're actually somewhat incompetent, maybe, or not as competent as they want to be. So then admitting, oh, I was wrong about this, or, you know, you saw something that I didn't, feels intolerable. You know,
Susanne: Yeah, I think it's so critical to building trust and to the last thing I wanted to do was to make this person feel like they couldn't give me feedback. Yeah, again, right, and, and, and, I think it's all of our responsibility to go, know that, you know. Again, I also feel bad going, Oh, you were right. Like, I don't need, you know, yeah. People go, oh, I asked some other people, and apparently You're right. Well,
Collette: I can see how that could come across as like, Yeah, well, I didn't need your validation anyway. But I think also for somebody who is surely, this was an uncomfortable experience. For that person, surely they had some concerns about what this would do to your relationship and for you to come back and validate them, I think is kind. Whether they need it or not, that's not your decision. That's theirs, but to offer that for them,
Susanne: I think a wise Collette, well, that was Collette, right there, yeah, no, no. And I think for me, it's also going, I know you don't need my validation, yeah, but, but I was wrong and you were right. Yeah, holds power right. It's, it's not about you being right. It's about me being wrong. In that instance to me, right? Like, I like, Thank you, because I did not see that. Yeah, it is the last thing that I want to be is seen as not collaborative, right? And, and I commit to working on it, and here's what I'm going to do, and here's where I need your help, like, when I do this, because I'll probably do it again, because it's how I've operated for however long, right? I think that's the other part of the feedback circle. Is not just thanks for the feedback, but here's what I'm going to do about it, and and here's where I need you to help me, because I really do value that you brought this my attention. Yeah, right. And so I also think your help, you're, you're critical to to continuing to to give me feedback on that and how I'm doing. And, you know, it's like, it's like, the word, you know, is the sticky? Is this not sticky like it's that, it's that ability to be a part of and continuing to be a part of what I just offered, yeah, hard. And by you going, not only I get it, I was I need to do something different. I also need your help to do this is like the biggest validation ever,
Collette: Totally, yeah. And I um, like, as you're talking, I was almost thinking too, that the validation is less you are right, and more it repeating that you that you actually heard what they said, Yeah. And I really heard you, and I took it in, and I get you. I'm, you know, understand where you could see that and feel that way. So what did this do to your relationship with this person? Do you recall, like, oh,
Susanne: Umpteen million times. I mean, not and Anne, I don't think I had a bad relationship to be on with, we'd have to ask her,
Collette: Do I know maybe on the podcast, right?
Susanne: Yeah, oh my god, this is her life. Can you imagine? No, it would be like no one would come on. No, I think it strengthened our relationship and made that notion of feedback, of welcoming for both of us, yeah, because I really thought how that was brave to come to me, because I know how hard it is to go up, yeah. And so, you know, that became one of my go to people of, what do you think about this? You know, might show up well, like, seriously, did I show up? Well for that, which is that other piece of feedback is normalizing it so that it's less of a deal every time. You know, yeah, it's not twice a year at performance in mid years or whatever, right? It's how did I show up? It's how this do, like, you know, what can I do? More or less a better whatever, whatever. Those are ways that that you can ask that make it feel better and normal is all the better?
Collette: Yeah, I, I was talking to somebody about this the other day, about the infrequency of performance conversations in general, and how stuffy it makes everything. And I was trying, I think I came up with this analogy of, it's like communicating with your partner only in therapy. Yeah, like, you live with this person every day. You pass each other in the hallways. You're always you're doing things together, but you wait until a therapy session to air all your grievances and feedback for each other. Yeah, and so that's not a healthy relationship. It certainly is not a high performing relationship. It doesn't, it's not a setup for something that actually works.
Susanne: Yeah, yeah. I mean, only if you have a lot of money, I guess, right,
Collette: Every day maybe, I mean, it would just it's enough to limp it along, maybe, but definitely not enough to make it work, you know. And somehow at work, we think, even though we spend all this time working toward the same things and working together, that we can have a once a quarter conversation, a once a month conversation, a once a year conversation, and that that's going to just cover it, one that's highly structured and moderated and all that, it's like no. But the I think the struggle is that is hard, and we haven't taught people how to do it, and it's so scary for. For a leader, especially, I think, to raise their hand and say, I don't know how to do this. I know you made me a leader. And I, you know, I think you're going to regret your decision if I, if I say I don't know how to actually do this, and I need some help with it.
Susanne: Yeah, totally agree. Such a skill and that notion of, oh, you're a manager, or you manage people, therefore you know how to do this is, like, the biggest fallacy in the world, yeah.
Collette: So like, where did you learn how to do it? Because I do think that you do it well. Suzanne, thank you.
Susanne: Collette. I think you do it well too. I think like you're also the master queen of which is why you're found your bliss and Open360 Yeah, I had really great models along the way and equally, really bad models that I also went, Okay, I don't want to do that, and I want to do more of that, and I want to do it in my own way. So I don't want to just emulate 100% someone else. And so I think some of it is playing around with what feels because you want to be authentic. You don't want to just copy and paste and, you know, whatever, or I don't know I, and I've had a lot of training because I was an L and D, you know, yeah, OD, forever. And so I've seen so many good models and have probably piecemealed however I do it through that, but I also don't think I always do it well, yeah, you know, and I also get completely freaked out too. I get completely freaked out sometimes. And I will have, like, my phone, I will wake up and go, Okay, let me sit. And I like a notes on how to, you know, what I want to say to somebody. You still doing that? I know I've been doing it forever. It's part of my madness and my methodology that says I gotta write it out. It may not be how I say it, but I gotta, I really got to, need to check my intention. Check. I mean, like, you know, check for trigger words. Check to make, you know, those kinds of things, and not that I rehearse it and say it because I want it to be real and all of that. But if it's really hard, especially if it's relational, I will, I will ponder, yeah, ponder for a while before it comes out. It doesn't come out like
Collette: on the spot, yeah, which is probably why you do it so well, because you are thoughtful about it and you're really intentional about it.
Susanne: I try and I try. I sometimes go, Oh my gosh. I spend so much time making it in a way that it can be heard. I mean, I if it's really hard for me, I know that I will spend so I'll spend some time on it before I ever bring it up. And part of that is getting my courage up and feeling that I have the confidence and the and I have my head straight about it, and I'm not going to be emotional about it, myself, giving, giving it like I have my own emotions in check, even if it's, you know, I thought you were going to do this, and this is what you did and, and maybe I have some anger. Maybe looked made me look bad, or made our team look bad, or, you know, like all of those things. So that sometimes when people go on feedback and you're like, Ah, it's because the blood, it's the our emotion. We were too emotional about it, and, and, and it's just an emotional thing. And so can you do that ahead of time and get your emotion out before you actually have the conversation and then realize the other person needs time to have that emotion.
Collette: Yeah? Because you've thought it through, you find it out, you've spent time with it. This is maybe the first that they're gonna be hearing this and thinking about it, that that's a really great point.
Susanne: What's your biggest Do we have time? Yeah? Yeah, I want to hear your biggest feedback moment.
Collette: Okay, so I have something in my brain in the meantime, though. So I have, I was thinking this as you were talking is that in six minutes is so not enough time for my feedback, let me tell you. But maybe we can have a podcast about maybe you could do that podcast and we'll talk about it. But so I was thinking, you know, of course, it's still hard. Of course it's still hard, and this is part of what we need to teach people so that they're not ashamed to say, I don't know or I'm scared or I need help. That is because you it's always going to be hard because you are only 50% of the conversation, yeah, if it's with another person, you don't ever know what they're going to do, what they're going to say, what they're going to think you're actually not even responsible for that. You're responsible for staying open to their feedback and requests and being respectful. But when you go into anything, if there's a 50% chance of, like an unknown, stuff's gonna happen. And so I think a a good portion of what helps people feel better about that is a plan for recovery ability when things go off the rails, to know, okay, it's okay. Guess what? We can have three conversations. We don't just have to have one. So if the first one doesn't work, let's stop it. Let's take a time out. Try to come back to it tomorrow and then address what's happening between us and what just happened yesterday, instead of the issue. And let's get back on track, and then we can have another conversation. It's like a game of chess, in a way. And what you're talking about with that over preparation, I totally get because I have that tendency myself, like I want to plan it all out myself, and this is how it's going to unfold. And it never works that way, because I move my chest piece, and you move your chest piece, and then I move my chest piece, and there are just constantly moving parts and so normalizing how scary and hard it is like even when you're graded, it like you are, I think is so important.
Susanne: I love that Collette and I also think we, I mean, you know, one day, maybe we can do it so well that we don't have to prep, and we can do stuff like, hey, like, yeah, what the hell you know, yeah, it'd be okay, right, right? Because we're giving each other grace, and we're giving each other empathy, and we came from the right spot, which goes back to having the right intention. I think intention is just everything in so much, so much of my life, but, but I do think that I do think knowing that going into a conversation makes me a better at it, yeah, you know, it just makes me better, better, better at having the conversation about better, about the unknown, even like my intention is, maybe my intention is, I just want our relationship to Be better, and that's as far as I get with my intention. You know what I mean? Like, it doesn't even require, like, oodles of days of ruminating over, you know, whatever, but being clear on my intention and communicating and being able to articulate that.
Collette: Yeah, I love that. I think that's what's happening when you're writing all of those things on your phone, and when you're really taking responsibility for your side of the street basically, you know? And I think that you might take more responsibility for the other side of the street too, but I think that's normal as a leader, I think you do have more of an impact, so you do have to pay attention to that. But I think also what makes conversations healthy is that each person is responsible for themselves. So the and this is you and I have this where, you know, if I have a problem, I'd be like, hold up, Suzanne. I don't agree with that. I don't like what you just said, and vice versa. So guess what? We're totally freed up because I can say what I need to say. And you know I love you, and you know where I'm coming from, and I might misstep, and I can be assured that if I do with you, you're gonna check me, yeah, yeah, vice versa, yeah,
Susanne: Yeah, it's intention and trust. And, I mean, it's so much of that. And if you, if you go in without that, without those two pieces, how do you build it and feedback, those kinds of conversations, build trust, right, eventually, so it doesn't happen overnight, either, right? I've cried a lot of during feedback, things you know, getting family night, whether it was anger tears or happy tears or mortified tears, you know, at that big old mirror staring back at me and having the space to go that's okay too, or I can't. I'm too emotional to get. Continue this conversation, yeah, and I don't, I don't want to be that
Collette: Suzanne. I love you. And talking to you, it's like, some of the things you say, I go, Oh, that's where I got that from, because I think the same thing. But I'm like, I bet I got that from Suzanne.
Susanne: Yeah. Vice versa, probably
Collette: Truly, truly, I love you and I you are a powerful, beautiful, wise, thoughtful woman, and I'm so grateful for you for your friendship, and also for you to come on here and share and just be vulnerable and share your story and your wisdom with us too.
Susanne: Thank you, Collette. All right, it's my pleasure, and I'm thrilled. And take everything I said with a grain of salt, because who knows
Collette: Girl, who does and thank you, Dave, for showing up and being such a participant on our chat for our live stream. We love you guys.
