In this final episode of Season 1, Collette is joined by one of her closest friends—Stefanie Curtiss, Managing Director of Health Services at MusiCares, wellness advocate, and psychology nerd.
Stefanie works with people in the music industry navigating some of life’s hardest moments—burnout, caregiving, illness, and financial stress. Together, she and Colette talk about the emotional weight so many people carry quietly, how hard it still is to say “I’m not okay,” and why listening with care matters more than fixing. This episode is a reminder that vulnerability is not a weakness—it’s a form of leadership.
In this episode, you’ll hear:
This episode isn’t about having the answers. It’s about being brave enough to speak your truth.
Watch the episode on YouTube or listen on Spotify or Apple.
Collette: Welcome to Feedback Fix where we get real about the messy conversations that move us forward. We are a live podcast, which means no scripts, no do overs, just unfiltered, honest conversations happening as they unfold. I'm Collette Revere, and today I'm sitting down with Stephanie Curtis, Managing Director of Health Services at music cares, where she helps music professionals access life saving care and stay well on stage and off, as well as Stephanie is one of my very best friends and supporter of Open360 so Stefanie, welcome to the podcast.
Stefanie: Thank you. Glad I get to be here.
Collette: We got our little dance, which everybody knows is great for a podcast. Um, here. Okay, can you explain a little bit about what you do for work?
Stefanie: Sure. Yeah. So I work for a non profit, a 501c3, that has been around since 1989 called Music cares, that focuses on the holistic health and well being of those who work in the music community, so not just artists and musicians, but those that are behind the scenes as well. So all aspects of the music industry, and my role specifically, is I get to lead the team that focuses on physical health and wellness initiatives nationwide. So whether that's working individually, with people who need assistance because they themselves have a medical diagnosis or have a sick loved one have to come off tour, we help with them one on one. And then we also create a variety of preventative programs, whether that be like biannual dental clinics, vision clinics or ongoing I like to say, we address the three A's, affordability, accessibility and awareness. We want to make sure that our community has access to these services that many people that work in the music industry may not typically have access to. We want to remove the barriers of affordable affordability, and we want to give a gentle nudge to just remind them to take care of themselves. So yeah, that's what I do on a daily basis. Super grateful for that opportunity to get to do what I do and to help so many music's Awesome, yeah. So to be able to help people that create it is a real blessing.
Collette: Totally, I have been on the front lines of some of the work that you're doing, and I know how much of an impact it makes. So it's really cool that you're the right person.
Stefanie: You have been my recruited coworker too, that's for sure.
Collette: It's great. It's been great. And so for those of you who are listening, if you are in the music industry, music cares. This is what I learned when, when Stefanie and I first became friends, I would just anybody who said they were in the music industry. I'm like, Oh, you got to know my friend. She can help you if you ever need help. But it's true that I've just, I know that you all do help with mental health, physical health, just kind of any kind of struggles that are going on with people in the music industry.
Stefanie: Yeah, and it used to be just those who were going through difficult times. That's kind of why it was founded. I mean, in 1989 it was really grassroots. Someone just had a baby. Let's take them diapers, you know? I mean, it was really that kind of community driven initiative. And so, pre pandemic, it really was reaction, right? It was, if someone's got something unexpected happening, we're here to jump in and help out. Yeah, really, since the if there's a silver lining, and we can call it a silver lining, I don't know if that's really what I want to call it. When live music shut down during the pandemic, so many more people became aware of our organization, and so since then, we've been able to, with that awareness, raise more funding, and then be able to really create a broad scope of services that are proactive. So I kind of say we're here to help when things go bad, but also reach out to us just to stay in the loop, get on our email list, because there's a lot of things, from emotional support groups to financial coaching that we're doing just to try to set us up so that when those hiccups do come along, because, let's be honest, we all have rough patches in life, it's about really being connected with that support system and knowing how and who to reach out to when you need the help.
Collette: Yeah, that's awesome. So it's musicares.org. Is that or org? Okay?
Stefanie: MusiCares one word with one c Okay, two words. So I spell that every day, so it's
Collette: Oh, in other words, just Google it. Yeah, you can just, that's what I have to do. It. Um, so when we're talking about feedback, there's. Something that just struck me about your job that I think would could be a difficult thing, and that is like you're giving away resources, you're connecting people, you're doing a lot, but I'm sure there are times where you have to say no and like, how? How have you learned to do that well?
Stefanie: Have I? I think I'm still learning how to do that. Well, um, yeah. I mean, it's not fun, yeah. And, and I will say that music hairs is a well funded nonprofit, and so it's rarer in my role than in other jobs I've had. But yeah, I mean, when you work for a nonprofit, people are coming to you because they're not doing well already. Like, it's not like you're interacting with folks at their best, and then you have to potentially, you may be the last ditch effort hope for them, you know, to not be evicted or to get into rehab. And so when you have to say, no, it's definitely not an easy conversation, but I think I don't know if I ever gotten good at it, and I don't know if I just try to meet people where they are, and if people are angry, I try to be calming, allow them the space to feel what they feel, and just try to de escalate. If people are sad, to try to validate whatever it is they're feeling, and then just try to, even if we're saying no, it's never just a hard no, we're going to try to find resources for them. So it may just be more. I'm not the one that can help you, yeah, but let's find another, another connection that might be able to jump in and help out. And then, you know, there are those times where there's just people aren't just going to be happy, and that's just not fun, and those are the ones that will stick with you all day long. I say one of my team all the time. It's like, we get we get tons of thank yous, but it's those few negative ones that stick with you. I don't know if that's the human experience or what, and so it's not fun, but you just have to know that you do the best you can and try to be the best version of yourself, to be non judgmental, open and allow them to be seen. And at the end of the day, I may not have a magic wand to fix their problems, but if I've at least let them know that they deserve to be seen and heard, then that's at least something. It may not be what they came to me for, but actually so
Collette: I love that. So you're just helping to express their value and their importance, no matter what you're able to do. And I imagine for me, when I have to give somebody feedback that I don't think they're gonna like, I have to talk to myself a little bit first and just get myself in a good place, like, because, to your point, nobody likes to be not liked, or, you know, kind of the bad guy in a situation. And so how do you? How do you do that? Do you have those conversations with yourself?
Stefanie: Yeah, well, I mean, I'm, like, a big visual or, like, I don't know what I'm trying to say. Like, I do try to prepare myself for sure. I pick certain times that I know I may be going to have more energy or more bandwidth. Like, I'm not going to want to do it before my coffee. And if you know, if I'm, if I know I'm going to be stressed out, I may try to push it to the next day. So I definitely do try to pick the moment, because I deserve that, and so do they. But then I also do things like, and I'm sure someone taught me this once, and I don't, and I wish whoever was I give you credit, because I'm like, this idea of like, when you have a phone, imagine there being like a like a filter through the part that you're listening through. And so it's like you can hear the words that you can hear the functionality and the fact, the facts of what's coming through. But you don't necessarily let the emotions come through that filter like that. And so I try to use, you know, when possible, not like I do it all the time when I'm when I'm doing my best and taking care of myself and really being there for those that's what you have to do. You just have to know it's going to be tough, and then set yourself up for success that way. So I have a variety of different little meditative tools that I'll do like that. So just try to put me like emotional armor. The other one I like to talk about is, like a visual place, that's my safe place. And I had a therapist help me with this once, and it was like this tower, and I'm up on top with my Corgi statement, and he's got a helmet on, and I like, it's like we're armored and ready to go. Oh, more like a military helmet, you know, with a strap jangling, you know, not, yeah, so much Viking, although be a lot cooler.
Collette: I just want to picture the Corgi in the helmet. But that's clearer to me.
Stefanie: Like the ears are still kind of sticking out with the helmet, and then a little strap kind of going. Under but yeah, so I'll just kind of try to visualize like I'm in my space and I'm prepared for whatever comes my way. Yes,
Collette: You know so you and I met. Gosh, how long ago was it? Stephanie, it was at least 15 years ago.
Stefanie: I think it was probably closer to 20.
Collette: Was it?
Stefanie: Probably because you were in my wedding, which was over 15 years,
Collette: My gosh, crazy. But you know, you and I have both changed a lot, and then we both also haven't changed a lot at the very same time. But when we first met, I think both of us were probably like this. We were what would you call us? Not naive, but I would say we were both probably people pleasers to a large degree. And when was the first experience you ever had of like being the person who's not sharing the feedback that you feel like it's going to be positive, or being the person who has to share the hard feedback.
Stefanie: When was the first time I had to do that?
Collette: That you can remember,
Stefanie: I don't know. I mean I can't think of a specific example, like, at least I go to work wise, and I, I think, to your point, people pleasing all day, like that's my middle name. And so I think maybe my whole life has been trying to soften the blow of feedback. And so I don't know, like this, maybe we'll have to schedule a therapy session. But so this may be completely off, but I do, I kind of feel like, almost like, ever since I was young. That's the thing is that I was so sensitive that I was picking up on the unspoken things of other people, or the real meaning of what the people all around me weren't really communicating. And so I don't, I don't know that that was, um, that they perceived it as me giving them the feedback. But I almost think by being who I was, I was trying to make the environment that I was in a place that felt safe for everyone to receive feedback. If that makes,
Collette: Yeah, I totally get that. So it's like, you know this is, we'll see if this analogy works. When it comes out of my mouth, you never know. But I've heard this analogy of, like, you can pave the world, or you could put shoes on your own feet. And it sounds like what you're describing is the early example of, like, being young and not really knowing how to do it and paving the world, just like trying to make it easier for other people to be themselves and to, you know, I don't know what, what do you think it was? What was the word that you were trying to make it easier for them to do what?
Stefanie: I mean, survive? I don't know. I mean, I think the world's hard. Things are hard when, you know, and so I think I just wanted them to feel safe, to accept it. I think, I think from a young age, I have felt like people are avoiding difficult things. No, my father was an addict. Yeah, you know, I just that household and stuff. It was like. And so I think from a really, really early on age. And so I think I knew I didn't want to, I didn't want to do that to avoid it. Not that I don't. I'm not trying to sell like a sage over here, but I think I knew that the reality was, you can't go around it. You have to go through it. And so I guess I don't know. I mean, you know, you always ask me questions, like in real time, and I'm like, I don't know, let's see what answer pops out. But I think, I think that's what it really was, was more just like trying to help people be able to navigate the hard stuff, yeah, and sometimes in a codependent way, to your point where it's like, Oh, I see you're not ready for this. So let me try to do it for you. Other times, like, I used to talk about, like, awareness and volition, right? Like some people weren't aware of it, and other people didn't have the volition to make the change. And so I think I'm always like, thinking, like, Are they aware if not? Let me help make them aware if they're if they're already aware, but they're just not doing it. Let me help them doing it, even if it's not my responsibility. Because if it's, if it, if I can, you know, then it's in my control. It's a lie, right? That's the lie is that if it's if I'm involved in some way that I have control over it is such
Collette: It is such a huge I want to use a word that I probably shouldn't use on here, but it's kind of a mind fuck, this codependency thing, because it's so common. So you and I went to the same graduate school different times, and I. Remember them teaching us like as people who were going to become counselors and therapists, that that we were probably all somewhat codependent, if not really codependent, and that's why we chose this profession, and they really hammered it home that codependence is actually a control mechanism. It's they said codependence is the sunny side of control. That's what they called it. And really helped me understand that when my focus is on what other people need to change instead of what I need to do, then I'm probably stuck in some sort of codependent dynamic.
Stefanie: Yeah, I mean, it's interesting, because I 100% agree with that, but I think sometimes it's not even, it's not even about being in what they're doing. It may be me trying to tell myself a story of what it is, because I'm trying, regardless, I'm trying to find a way to make it where I'm in control. Yeah, sure. So I think for me, my, my, my brand of codependency, if you will, is, um, I own everything. So like, you know, you want to talk about feedback, I'm like, and I've been waiting, like, for the question of, like, how do you feel? So I'm just going to ask it to myself, and it's like, I have, like, a walking, raw nerve of feedback, because I want it so desperately, because if I get it, then I can fix it. Yeah. And my biggest fear is that people won't tell me that there's spinach in my teeth. No. And I'm going to be walking around, and so that's like a weird that's not what most people say about feedback. And I don't want to make it sound like I enjoy it like that's definitely not the case. But I I would so much rather know than not know, and I spend more time feeling anxious and nervous about not knowing or about have I created a space that's not safe or not? Am I not trustworthy that that has caused people to not be able to share with me? So I spend a lot more of my energy thinking about those things. Yeah, because I desperately want the feedback, because then I can decide, yeah, am I going to accept it? Am I going to change it? It's the whole serenity prayer. But if I don't know, then how am I supposed to make that decision?
Collette: Yeah, it puts the ball back in your court, where you feel like you have some control Absolutely. And I love your the theme for you is safety. It's about helping other people feel safe. It's about feeling safe yourself and just having a safe, safe space. And that makes a lot of sense to me,
Stefanie: Not too many safe places out there.
Collette: No,
Stefanie: No. And most of us that turn to. Like, you know, what is it like the goal like, we just get more ingrained and hunkered down because we're just protecting ourselves, which unfortunately leads to less safety, connection, comfort, collaboration. So, yeah,
Collette: Yeah, the experience of safety is interesting for especially, I think, for people who didn't have it growing up, who didn't have, like, stability safety, which I would say is most people, because we're, all you know, being raised by people who are just learning as they go, as We are, too. And so I think that that search for safety, or that desire for safety, is really even harder when you didn't when you're not grounded in what that should actually feel and look like. Yeah, and maybe we create other non safe ways of feeling safe, if that makes sense, I think.
Stefanie: So yeah, as always, when you, when I talk to you, you have these little truth bombs. But yeah, I mean, I think when you don't, you never know if you're safe, if you don't know what safe feels like, and so you're constantly seeking that. Yeah, yeah, that makes for sure.
Collette: Um, so I know you have two different stories. You couldn't decide which one you were going to tell us today. And you know how much I like to hear a first person story, so I know you're going to nail it, but we can pressure. We could probably cover both. Tell me the one that's on your mind right now.
Stefanie: Okay, so from a work perspective, and I just like, want to caveat that I'm genuinely chose this one, because I really do have to. I really do, like, replay this and revisit it on a regular basis, but I also know that it might seem like I'm telling. A story that makes me look maybe good, but that's not the intention, and I don't want to it might seem slightly narcissistic, but this is little 20 little, you know, new corporate America, early 20 something, Stephanie, first real job. I should say I had another job prior, but it was like an internship that turned into a job. So this felt like my first real job. It was, it was at a corporate headquarters, and so everyone wore pant suits and stilettos.
Collette: And not everyone wore stilettos. Let me just put that in there that is your remembering of the situation.
Stefanie: But I will say about stilettos, but there were a lot of pantsuit there were a lot of pantsuits. And so, you know, the context of this is I feel like, you know, tie dyed in a world of black and white already to begin with, and I'm young and inexperienced and trying to prove myself, and so I don't remember my official title, I think it was like intake coordinator or something. I mean, it was an entry level position. And so I'm supporting this team of five people or so. And you know, I will say, as we all know, a lot of the work trickles downhill. So I had a lot of work on my on my plate, and I was just wanting to be perfect. This is I wanted to be. Just had to nail it, because, if not, I'm failing right? And so this my boss at the time, the the man who had hired me, had taken me out for some pizza during my interview. FYI, not the best pizza food to eat when you're interviewing, because I got something stuck in my feet, my teeth, and didn't find out about till later. But anyway, still got the job, but I was just having a really difficult time. I was, you know, felt like I was failing every single day. I was exhausted, I was stressed out, I didn't feel like I belonged. I thought I'd made a huge mistake to take this job. And so he pulls me aside, and he says to me, you know, take a breath. Let's come sit down. I think maybe I was teary. We're talking 20 something years ago, so, but he says to me, you know, Stephanie, you have to understand that you're doing a phenomenal job. And what he specifically says is, you are so driven and so want to do a such a good job that you on a bad day is really better than most people on their best day. And like I said, I know that sounds like weird feedback to be talking about in a context like this, but I think as someone who still to this day, struggles. If I have a down moment, I think I'm doing something wrong, like, Wait a minute. Why? Why do I have a minute to go get some coffee? I think that's information I needed to hear. And I think the way that that he approached me also because I wasn't asking for help, and I thought I was holding it together, like I thought I was doing my best to juggle spin all these plates, but he saw it without me asking. Knew that obviously I was worried about being perfect, and so it was a sensitive subject, and sat me down, and he looked a little bit like Jim Gaffagin, just a really lovely, kind hearted man, you know, like just kind of so. So anyway, I did my best to describe it in as much detail as possible, but that's good, but that's my first little entry into the world, and it's something that I still think about in my work days and personal life all the time.
Collette: So in your own words, what would you say is, was the most powerful thing about it? What made it so powerful for you?
Stefanie: That I could relax? I mean, it was like, I think it was just that statement of, like, you having a bad day is still better than most. I think just it was such an extreme statement, yeah, like, he didn't say, Stephanie, you're doing great, or Stephanie, you're new, you're gonna catch on. He, like, could see that, I thought, like he saw how hard I was on myself, and was able to say like and he obviously saw that I had an abnormal amount of commitment, or I guess in his mind, you know. And I think I can say this objectively and not narcissistically. These days, I do. I am very highly motivated, purpose, driven, almost to a fault where I can feel like my that's my life. It's and it's not. It's my job. And so I think the fact that he was able to put into words like, even if you had a bad day, you would still be succeeding, let alone if you just didn't try as hard as you were trying, it just gave me permission to exhale. I totally, it's taken me 20 years to start to actually implement that advice, but thought about that forever.
Collette: Well, I think it makes sense for several reasons. One, because just like you said, you. You really like knowing that there are things that you can fix, because that means, like that you can have some level of control over things. So I can imagine, and in this situation, he was basically telling you, your radar is kind of off. He's like, you're uncalibrated.
Stefanie: And that more perspective of what is acceptable is not in alignment,
Collette: Yes, and that was, that was beautiful for you, because you couldn't change that internal barometer. You know, it felt like, I'm not perfect. I need to do this. What do I need to do to be even better? And he's just saying, you know, your barometer is fine. Don't, don't even pay attention to it. Don't worry about it. It's a you know. And so just giving you real permission to be good enough without trying to be better.
Stefanie: And I think, like, what we were talking about earlier, I think it's okay to not be okay. I think given that permission to feel safe, to like, I think he gave me in that one statement, he created what I didn't even know at the time I needed, yeah, you know, I'm like, It's okay if you don't, if you have a bad day, you're still great, like it's okay for you to come to me. In that one statement, it was like, it's okay to come to me and tell me you need help. Or it summed up so many different things that I until he had said it, I didn't. No one in my life had really ever said that. Yeah, at that point.
Collette: You know, I love that. I could totally see that. And so for you, it's just, we all know that we can see things in other people that they're hoping we can't see. You know, everybody's like, surely I'm hiding this, surely I'm keeping it together. And then you know, pretty much everybody around is like, knows what's going on. So for you as a leader now, how, and I know that you are really paying attention to the people, part of leadership and kind of taking care of people. So how do you know, what signals do you see for people that you might need to take them aside, that they might not be doing well, whether it's overwhelm or stress or burnout, what do you look for and what do you notice as a leader now?
Stefanie: Yeah, well, I intentionally touch base, and I built it into our culture of our team, so they learn early on, if they're on my team, that this is going to be something that we discuss. And I don't ever want anyone to feel like they have to share more than they want. But it'll be a variety of things, from just a thumb up, thumb sideways, thumb down to basically let us know. And then if there is a thumb down or a thumb sideways, then my response is, do you want to talk about it? They can say, No, that's fine or and then I also say, is there anything I can do about it? Early on in my leadership, I wanted to fix it all, but I now know that that's not the case. And a lot of times it's just giving space and recognizing it. So so I think you know, the main thing is, I try to stay in front of it, or just remind them and give them opportunities, because I think that when we're not doing well, we're even more inclined to withdraw, or even more inclined to not feel comfortable asking for help. Yeah, so I just try to give opportunity consistently so it doesn't feel uncomfortable when they do actually need to help. But then obviously, I mean, it's it varies from person to person. Thanks to you, I've actually asked questions of each person, what does it look like when you aren't doing well, and how would you like me to respond or address if I see that? And so whenever we get a new team member, we'll kind of recalibrate and go around and share that information with each other. So we've done that as well. And so then I kind of have those, those filed away, and I look for that in each individual person.
Collette: I love this, this thumbs up, thumb sideways and thumbs down. Because, man, what a way to be able to get a read like I feel like a lot of times people don't, can't even verbalize how they're doing, but this is not even asking them to think too hard. It's like, Am I doing good? Am I doing okay? Am I not doing good? Those are your choices, and that what a great way to allow people to communicate and share without having to, like, really understand what's going on.
Stefanie: Yeah, and I think that's, that's what I like about it, is that it gives the opportunity to open a door if they want it, but they also don't have to what's it could just but it still gives me valuable information, if, whether it's distributing workloads, whether it's when I have my one on one and touch base, like, do I want to, you know, see. If they want to talk a little more. So, yeah, it's, it's, it's been helpful for me and my team. Yeah, not a good day when everyone's got the thumbs down, but then, but then we just acknowledge that there are days like that, and that's where we start talking about sick time can be used for mental health, you know. And that's kind of a whole separate conversation you and I could have and have had before. But, you know, I think if someone was physically sick, they wouldn't feel fine taking a day off. But when it's just an emotional or stress level, we don't necessarily feel empowered to do that. And so we try to talk about sick days in that way too. And so you don't even have to communicate to us about it. You could just sit that sick time in, and that way we'll know you need the time.
Collette: I love that. Yes, I know in our friendship, we've had many conversations about mental health, and you've tried to rebrand it several times. Um, not mental health. I think mental wellness, trying to come up with the right name to reduce the stigma and show that it's just a normal part of what everyone has to deal with. So can you say more about that?
Stefanie: Yeah, I super AM. So you're going to have to stop making here comes the soap box. Um, but yeah. I mean, I think from my own personal experience, from my education as a clinician, and from my work with working with individuals, we are still, as a society, so hesitant to feel like it's okay to just say I'm in a bad mood today, or I'm stressed out about what's going on in the world or whatever we think that even though our child's home sick, we have an aging parent that we're responsible for that's struggling with memory loss our job, our you know, maybe we are having layoffs at our job, all these things, let alone the things going on on a macro level in the world, everything we don't talk about, anything about, and we think we're just supposed to show up and be fine. So, yeah, what I like to try to make sure people think about is just like our physical health. It's a spectrum, and it's a spectrum that happens every single day. It's not a spectrum that like happens only if you have anxiety, then there's a spectrum of anxiety. Like, no, we all have mental health, and sometimes it's we're thriving, sometimes we're not thriving. And I say personally, my mental health before my coffee versus after my coffee, versus right after my lunch break versus before my lunch break, when I've had back to back meetings. Candidly today, I had a lot of back to back meetings, and I know my team can feel it when I don't even have a break in between me, because my mental health is not the best, because I always say it's like a top that's spun up and it hasn't had a chance to land. And so when I have to go, go, go, I'm not my best self. And then when you have to show up that way in a space that you don't feel comfortable saying, Hey guys, sorry, I'm not my best self. Right now, can we take a five minute to take a breath? Like, why can't we do that with each other? You know? So, you know, I think the seasons change if you're on medications. Have changed how you slept. It changed the temperature outside, the temperature in your house, all those things. So, yeah, I just think we need to be honest that it fluctuates moment to moment, day to day, and that it's okay to say those things. I mean, I'm Yeah, I know we in a workplace setting, we have a job to do, and I understand that we can't necessarily spend have a whole therapy session. And if someone is obviously that raw, then we need to discuss, how do we get them the support they need, or take them put, you know, get them off of work while they take care of themselves. But I think why wouldn't we just be more honest with each other about where we're at? It just normalizes it.
Collette: Oh yeah. I totally agree reducing the stigma, and I that's one of the reasons I stopped being a therapist, like a working therapist, is because I don't this. I am no, you know, I'm not the thought leader in this space, but I don't agree with the DSM of the disease model of mental health. I'm with you. I think there are so many things that are not don't work with the disease model, like depression, like anxiety, and some things do, but many, many things don't. And so I think that maybe for some people, having being labeled as a disease, helps them externalize it from themselves and to feel better about it and to be able to move forward. But I know even personally, like for me, I had shame in my, you know, mental health challenges, just like, oh, I have this, or I have that, and just feeling stuck with it and that something was maybe wrong, when, in fact, it was just, it's all most, and there's been more 100%
Stefanie: And there's no real stats, because we have no way of knowing how many people are hiding it because of that. And I you know this. I. I am a huge advocate of it, but still felt, I don't know if shame necessarily, probably, but it was more like I should be able to do this without medication, right? I know even me, who is saying we should be stigmatizing, is still buying into the culture of what it is, and it's so much aligned with medical insurance. And, you know, you know, do you need a diagnosis for those types of things? There's so many layers to it. But I just think that even people who aren't diagnosed by definition, the way we have it, set it up right now, if you experience that at all, malaise, depression, anxiety, whatever you beat yourself up for it, because it's a diagnosis. Yeah, have to be it's like, no, these are all normal emotions that we all are born with, right? And it's healthy too. It's the right place for it.
Collette: Then, like, mentally, if it's not a diagnosis, where do you think it belongs?
Stefanie: Like, I mean, I think it's just like, physical health. We have our annual physicals every year, and there's like, the, I guess maybe what's, what do we need to do? Come up with and they do have assessments for depression anxiety, but it needs to be like, when I go get my physical done, or when the kids are growing up and you get like, where you are in the range, I don't know. It just needs to be normalized and be more like, this is just where you are, right? Not bad. It's not good. This is what your blood work, lab results are, this is where you are right now, factually, and that is going to change, you know? I mean, I think that's what we don't acknowledge. That's all I'm saying, is that it's like we get annual physicals, and, you know, like our blood pressure, my blood pressure changes every single time I go to the doctor, completely different. Why can't it be like that with mental health? And it doesn't mean there's something wrong with right?
Collette: It means that's the way it is, permanence of it you're right because, like, if we have high cholesterol, which high cholesterol is one of those things that is hard to really turn around, but if we have a high cholesterol number, it's not like you're from the jump, going around and saying, oh my gosh, I have high cholesterol now, and who I am, right?
Stefanie: Yeah. And so the medications treat the symptoms, and it's fine, yeah? And no one talks about it, right? Yeah, yeah. It should be like that. It's just, I don't understand the difference. I don't know. I just don't think it's that.
Collette: Let me know. Put it in the comments. So I think that, yeah, there is something about that that we, I think, with the mental health labels, we hold on to them for a lot longer. It's like, if you have a high blood sugar or something, and you become type two diabetic, just or there's even pre diabetes, something like that, just a little bit. And then you can be not diabetic, and you can just kind of like it on the numbers, yeah.
Stefanie: And you have a treatment plan of how to change it, if you can or want to.
Collette: Versus if you have go through a bout of depression, which, by the way, in school, we learned that average people go through six depressions in their lifetime, six. And depression doesn't have to start from a chemical imbalance. It can start from an actual situation, and then your brain chemistry changes, and then you do become chemically depressed. So it's not like you're not operating or functioning normally if you have depression, this is just life, and we can expect that, but we don't learn that early on, and we don't really learn how to deal with it. And really kind of like we learn how to balance our checkbooks and other things we don't. We haven't learned how to manage that yet.
Stefanie: Right? I mean, why was taken to the doctor as a kid? I wasn't taken to a mental health No, yeah, why not? I mean, I was actually, but I just, but I just, mean, like, on a regular checkup date, like, why is it not incorporated, why wouldn't you just go get both, you know, start learning those things. That's why I do know some schools are starting to implement meditation mindfulness, instead of sending children with behavioral problems to the principal's office. Mm, hmm, they're sending them to a space to self regulate, yeah, because they're not bad kids, they just are triggered or frustrated. So I do know they're trying to teach those skills to children earlier, and I'm hopeful that by that is sort of the beginning steps of the future, not necessarily having the same kind of judgmental or kind of wanting to avoid acknowledging those things that they're learning early on, that that's just part of life. Yeah, every time will tell. But I wish that someone had taught me, you know, box breathing or meditation techniques when I was in second grade. You know?
Collette: I know me too, the box breathing is good one, and so I've seen you really have an impact through with this, through. Your work right now in terms of really working to normalize things and have people not get too worked up over labels or conditions, and just kind of helping people move forward. So I'm curious what your next feedback story is.
Stefanie: Oh, okay, so this one is also, apparently I haven't had impactful feedback since my early 20s. Okay, I'm just kidding.
Collette: You just got used to it. It makes sense it would be more powerful early on.
Stefanie: I just wanted to you when you ask, it's like, what's the most impactful. And so this one shout out to the hubs. Doug Cruz is the one that gave me this feedback. We were dating, so I was in my early to mid 20s, we had been having power struggle arguments, like normal couples do when you're past the honeymoon phase of a relationship. And, you know, I don't know if women out there would agree with me, but I as a woman, felt at the time like I'd been with him long enough he should know what I wanted, what I needed, without me having to ask. And if I have to ask, then that just like ruins the whole thing and takes all of the goodness out of it. And so I don't remember the context of this particular discussion, but we were in my little 600 square foot studio apartment hanging out, and I think I'm putting my mega bucket right for the day. And he's like, chilling in the bathroom, chatting with me, and he's just trying to make me understand. And he's just like, Listen, I want to make you happy. I want to do what you want me to do for you, but I can't read your mind. And if you don't tell me what I want, like, it doesn't ruin it. If you just tell me what I want and then I implement why does that ruin everything. Why is that not just as good? And so I'm sure he'd said that to me umpteen million times, or maybe previous boyfriends had even said it. But that was the magic time, and it just has been super, super impactful for me, that speaking up and telling others what you need from them, although it might feel because, to be honest, I had to realize it wasn't I was lying to myself. It wasn't really that it didn't mean anything. It was that I was uncomfortable asking beautiful like, I have to be honest and it's because if you do ask for what you want, and then they don't give it to you, yeah, then you know, and that's true at work too. It's in all relationships. And so that was such a huge, amazing, wonderful moment for me to realize that the facts is the facts, and if I don't ask for what I want, I won't ever know if they're able, willing, not willing, unable. You can't address the issue, whatever it is, unless you're willing to clearly communicate and ask for what you need. So that's my other Yeah.
Collette: So what was it in that moment? Since you know, it's something he had said before, what do you think it was in that moment that that changed your perspective?
Stefanie: I honestly don't know. I mean, I think that, like, I wish I could remember the specifics about what it was we were talking about, but I think it was just in that moment it was such a clear cut, like it was probably get my oil changed or something like, really tangible, yeah, that I was kind of like, you're right, if you still get my oil changed for me, why do I care if I have to ask you for it, like, I don't know, I can't remember the specifics, but I think in that particular moment, it was so factual that it made it forced me to realize that this thing that I was really invested in and really believed was, like, inappropriate for him to not be able to read My mind. It just forced me to realize, like, no something else is going on there. Stephanie, like this. This, the fact that, you know, what is the whole thing? I think you might protest too much. Yeah, I think definitely what I was doing.
Collette: So, you know, this is something that I've seen in so many couples, like, I almost don't even know a couple who doesn't have one person who's wanting to have their mind read, you know, or thinking that that should be possible. And there's something so and it's like, once you finally learn this lesson, because I think I had to learn it too. I just assume, like, if you really care about me, or if you know me, you're gonna know what to do to make things better. I didn't even know it's if you were to ask me specifically, I would not have been able to come up with the thing. But, you know, it was just this, like, romantic idea that there was somebody out there. Who was going to be able to do that for me, even though I couldn't do it for myself? And it's so empowering to learn that you've created your own suffering with that. And as soon as you put the focus back here and start to figure out what do I need, then that changes everything. Yeah, yeah. So how did you then make the transition from kind of this, this desire to want him to know, to actually figuring out what you wanted and needed?
Stefanie: Well, I mean, that's the journey for me. I don't know if that's the journey for everyone, but I mean, I think I'm still, I mean, I think, you know, I am an adult child of an alcoholic. I'm codependent. I want what's best for everyone in the world. I'm a heart led person, and that gets, that gets mixed in with what I want, because it's like I want both, you know. So I think it's a journey for me in general, about what I want. But I think, in you know, context to that statement, I think it just gave me permit. Now that I knew what dance was happening, it gave me permission, not only permission, but responsibility, to try to understand what I needed. And then the next step was, okay, well, you need this. So do you think you should give it to yourself, or do you think he should give it to you, or someone else should give it to you? And it was the whole phase of learning that. And I think being married 15 years now, together 20 plus, I think I finally there are fewer and fewer things. I think that's also just getting older. I'm 45 now, but there are fewer and fewer things that I think is really I even need from him, you know, like it this is so I think for me, anyway, that's then the journey is, is just realizing that that you're worth it, but they're not going to, they're not going to be able to necessarily read your mind, but if you ask for it, you'll have it. And also, what do you want to give yourself? Because I talk, I talk all the time to you, to my husband's people. I love giving to other people. Yeah, it feels good. I think Dax Shepard and his wife actually talked about this once too. But it's like, I love I cook. We have very traditional values in our marriage, and I love that because I love loving on him, and I love the way it feels when someone does that for me too. And I want him to have the feeling of what it feels like when when he takes care of me too. And I I'm it's teaching me that I'm depriving other people of those good feelings of taking care of me. So now he cooks one day a week. Still working on getting him to do the dishes. We must cook one day a week. And I think it's good to just start realizing there are different ways to take care of each other and to take care of yourself.
Collette: Yeah, I love this stuff and to ask for it to really be able to understand. I love that question of so then, do I do this? Okay, this is what I need to now, do I do this, or do I ask this of somebody else? And then, once you make that distinction, and so what happens for you? Then when you do ask, and it doesn't happen, because that is a challenge, right?
Stefanie: Yeah, and I honestly it is. And I think in some ways it's a little easier in my marriage, if I'm honest, because it's like, well, we're committed, like, so there's really no benefit in festering. I mean, I could, but I just need to think about what is the root of why I'm really upset. And a lot of times there's things, like, I need to trust you. Like, that's the real issue. You said you do it, you didn't do it, or whatever. So it's really getting to the root. But I think it is really hard and in a work setting, or a setting where I where, for me personally, where I don't necessarily feel as committed as safe, yeah, because there's more choices for me, you know, like, it's like, I understand we could get divorced and all that, but I'm just saying, like at work, it's like, if you ask someone to do it, there's no good situation when it doesn't work out right, especially as a leader. Because now it's like, I have to look at myself and say, Did I not clearly communicate that did I not develop that person properly? Did I not give them the resources that they needed. So there's all of those things. There is the idea or the possibility that this person is not a good fit, and that's not fun, because good fit or not, you care about them. And so now that's the journey you have to go down. And then it's can be scary as a leader, to say this isn't working. Let's talk about it, because, for lack of always saying it, there's that fear of opening the proverbial Pandora's box, because it could be a million different things that are going on with someone that's causing that, and I, as a leader, don't have, I don't have the ability to change that, and I still have to hold them accountable, and still have to coach them through this difficult process. So. Yeah. I mean, it's a difficult situation when you finally put out there what you need, what you want, when it doesn't happen. But I think kind of just circling back to the beginning of the conversation, for me, it's just trying to meet them where they are and try to remove the emotion. Now it's, you know, realize what we're talking about like, life is not over. This is not the end of the world, even if, like, we have a deadline coming up, like, you know, I'm very passionate about what I get to do. I'm super grateful for the role I get to play, but we're not doing brain surgery, yeah, if we, if we make a little mistake, it's not the end of someone's life, you know, and so just trying to put things in perspective and address them in the most safe, approachable way with individuals. Yeah, it's not That's the worst when you feel like you're not in control and they aren't able to give it, aren't able or willing to give it to you. It's not it to you. It's not, it doesn't feel good. I mean, there's no way around it. You just have to, I just think you have to just allow yourself to feel it, but then just let it go. You know, yes, living there doesn't do any good, building up resentments doesn't do any good, telling ourselves stories, assuming things do us any good. Yeah,
Collette: I like what you're saying about talking to people about it just kind of, you know, you can't let it fester. You can have some time to take care of yourself and some space to see kind of what happens, but at some point it's got to be addressed. And so at work or at home, like, is there a particular question i i use questions, or I try to come up with questions that I have like in my pocket, because i Master girlfriend, but I have to pre prepare, because in the moment, I cannot come up with anything that's other than just what comes out of my mouth. But do you have any questions or phrases that you use to kind of bring people into the conversation?
Stefanie: I think not, not like you. I'm not I wish, I wish I occasionally do with your guidance. I wish I did that more often, if I'm being honest, and now that you've said it again, I'm like, Oh yeah, I gotta do that. But I do always try to ensure that individuals know what I want to talk to them about, and I make sure that it's an appropriate time for both of us. Okay, so I never want anyone to be caught off guard. It's the worst. We're like, hey, talk to you, but you have no idea what they want to talk to you about. And then I also don't think I should force when we talk to them, because, you know, I know I need time to self regulate or feel prepared. Yeah, and I want them to do the same. We I want, we want good things for everyone involved. And so it's sort of like I will. I think the phrase, and I learned this from a couples counselor, but it's essentially this phrase of, I'd love to talk to you about x is now a good time? If the answer is no, then you ask them to select what time is good, because that way they feel in control. They have they could, it could be two weeks, it could be 30 minutes, and then I have to be patient. Yeah, that obviously, from a work perspective, if it's outside of the scope, I may have to counter, but as a general rule, if it's doable, I need to respect what they say, knowing that that means that's going to give them what they need to show up with their best self, prepared to really collaborate and problem solve. With me.
Collette: I think that's so smart Stef, that's such a good practice. So you say, you say, I'd like to talk to you about this so they know what it's about. So if it's something that they haven't done that's expected of them, they already are like, thinking about it, and no, and then Is now a good time? Is that what you say is now a good time?
Stefanie: Yeah? And then you know, yes. And if they say no, I ask them to tell me when would be a good time.
Collette: That's awesome, because you're not shying away from it. You're really just kind of putting the brick on the table there, but you're also giving them choices and helping them manage their own emotional response around it all.
Stefanie: Yeah, and it's really hard for me. I know it's what's right, and I wish I could say I've gotten better at it, but I want to get it over with. I want to rip that band aid. And so it's so hard, especially when they say it's going to, you know, yeah, actually, next week would be great. I'm like, Oh no, I don't want to worry about this conversation for a week. You know? I wish it wasn't that way. I wish I could just cool. But I'm so glad that they feel comfortable setting that boundary, because I want them to have it, even if it's uncomfortable for me and and, truth be told, I it is probably good for me to also have that time to think about as well.
Collette: You don't want that time, but it could actually be good time.
Stefanie: Yeah, this isn't going to be fun. Can we just do it now?
Collette: I've given the worst feedback in the spur of the moment, like I almost need that separation time, because, yeah, I don't know what happens. It's just the mouth goes before the brain and then what comes out. You gotta work with it, you know?
Stefanie: Oh, I'm the queen of that. I'm pretty sure I do that every day, all day. What are you going to do about it? But yeah,
Collette: I love you. Stef, I can't believe we've already been on here about an hour, and this is our last feedback fix podcast for season one. I'm so glad you could, like, carry us out.
Stefanie: I mean, I feel like every time I get to hang out with you. Talk with you is just the best ever, and you won't do it, so I'm going to do it like a little shout out to Open360 what you have created. If folks haven't visited the website yet, you totally should. It's a amazing eight week guided process to really get some leadership development for yourself, which I'm looking into, or for your teams. So I think anyone who's listened to this totally knows the expertise that you bring to this space, and I'm just so grateful for you, and so excited to see what you and Open360 accomplish.
Collette: Oh, thank you, Stef, I I've said it wouldn't be possible and it wouldn't be possible without you. I mean, that has truly been a collaborative effort, but you've been there from day one, cheering me on and supporting me. And I really believe it's the work I'm meant to do. So I'm so happy to just be able to do it, you know.
Stefanie: High five, babe,
Collette: High five, and we'll have to figure out with Steph and I have been talking about continuing a podcast together and what those topics might be, I know, so we need to figure out. If you have any suggestions, let us know. Do you have anything off the top of your head Stef?
Stefanie: Oh, we don't have enough time for that.
Collette: I figured you've got a notebook with ideas. I'm kind of out of ideas right now, but I would love to hear.
Stefanie: You've earned a break. You've earned a break. Yeah, for sure, yeah.
Collette: Thank you all for joining us on feedback fix and ha until next time. Mwah!
Stefanie: Bye.
