What if the real reason feedback feels broken isn’t about the format—it’s about fear? In this episode of Feedback Fix, we sit down with Petar Kralev, founder of Mirror 360, to explore the invisible energy we waste avoiding what’s real at work—and what becomes possible when we stop.
Together, we unpack why traditional performance reviews feel outdated in today’s environment, how Gen Z and AI are reshaping expectations, and why the simplest check-ins often have the biggest impact. Petar shares what he’s learned building tools for honest reflection, and how human-centered systems can change how we lead, listen, and grow.
In this episode, you’ll hear:
Whether you’re leading a team or just trying to make work feel less performative and more real, this episode is a breath of fresh air.
Watch the episode on YouTube or listen on Spotify or Apple.
Collette: Welcome to feedback fix where we get real about the messy conversations that move us forward. We are a live podcast, which means no scripts, no do overs, just unfiltered, honest conversations happening as they unfold. I'm Collette Revere and today I'm sitting down with Petar Kralev, founder of Mirror 360 an effective, easy to use software platform that reveals the truth at work about ourselves, our teams and the cultures we create as leaders. Petar, it is so good to talk to you again. Always good to talk to you, Collette, and thank you for having me on Yes, thank you for being here. So share with us a little bit about your company and kind of what's happening with your work right now?
Petar: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you, Collette and Mirror 360 is the company, and I think we might have started both of our businesses around the same time, and it's I love that we both have the 360 name in it, and we probably dive a little deeper, a little later. But your approach in the human side of feedback, and that qualitative angle is obviously badly needed. We take the other side of the coin, which is the surface level, real time from everybody, yeah, feedback. In other words, that no nonsense, like, Hey, how is? How is John right? The insight I had in my years in the corporation is that that type of surface level feedback is very, actually, directionally correct, if it's honest and it's absolutely necessary for business decisions, if we can collect it from all perspectives, because clearly, a surface level feedback from just one or two people is, you know, is biased, you know, it's from their angle, but if we can get it from everybody, and it's in real time, that unlocks something magical. And that's what we're doing at mirror 360
Collette: Yes, absolutely. And I love the way that you're doing it too, because it's so simple, you know, you would think, Okay, if you have a platform like that, or a program like that, it's going to take time, it's going to, you know, be hard to use and to do that on a regular basis, but it's so incredibly light touch and easy what you're doing. And it just is really a no brainer. If an organization wants to know how their people are doing, what their culture is like, it's almost like an engagement survey on the daily, yeah, to see how their people and culture are doing.
Petar: Yes, we could. It's so simple that we could probably do it daily, right? My whole background was in actually product design and then management consulting, where we had to poll people to kind of collect honest perspectives in real time data, but in a way that is human. So everybody has an opinion on things we're asking and ideally quick so we get the most engagement. The entire platform, merger 60 is built around that principle of simplicity. You have to be simple if you ever hope to get it from everybody, and all of them. Our second part of the system is kind of the engagement angle, like, are you actually happy at work and why? And that one, we actually collect on a weekly cadence with kind of questions rotating automatically, so that in time with the time weighted sort of series, we can sense changes as they occur. So if there were layoffs, or if there's some major disruption in the market, something happened, leaders can immediately see the sort of the actual impact and the sentiment on their teams. Yes, as it's happening,
Collette: That's beautiful. And you're building the habit. You're not just asking, like you there's you have a layoff at your organization. So now you're going to pull everybody and see how everybody's feeling. It's, it's, you have this ongoing data set that's coming in, trickling in, and you can see that information. It's, it's so beautiful, Petar, and you've actually helped simplify my platform as well. So I can attest to how good you are at that.
Petar: Appreciate it. Collette, look. We often hear from the market the opposite, right? It's like, oh, can I customize? Can I put this and that, can I also have these other things? And you understand why they're doing it. They're asking because they have this edge case and that edge case and this one of anecdote. But wouldn't it be nice to have so we actually had to make a lot of decisions that made almost it went against what the market would actually ask for, because we had a vision and kind of a clear perspective that, look, there are many tools that are customizable, and a lot of you know surveyed mechanisms like Survey Monkey and Qualtrics and others that could give you all of the options you ever want to call for whatever you want. But that's not what nerd do. Six is for. It's to turn on the lights. It is to automate, and, like you said, develop a habit of actually speaking up. And to do that, you have to make it very easy, yes, and you have to make it autonomously run automatic. There shouldn't be any administrator standing in the way of feedback. It should. We should use technology to actually free feedback from the bureaucracy of that kind of often feared HR department,
Collette: Yes. I love, really, your philosophy about this. You and I connected early on, because I would say both of us are mission driven companies, and you have a very strong mission. And it's last time we talked. We talked a lot about truth and truth at work. So will you share really like your soul in it, your purpose outside of helping organizations create a better culture and stay more informed about how their employees are doing and make adjustments. That's plenty. But can you talk to us about your bigger mission with mirror 360?
Petar: Certainly, it's an authentic place. I came from a cushy corporate career, right? Like climbing the ladder for more than 15 years, and it may actually very little sense for me to jump that very promising career, to do something new and like uncertain, right, like starting a startup, you know? Yeah, it's not an easy thing, yeah. So it I, you know, I would have given up probably 20 times by now if it wasn't for the drive and mission, which is, let's bring truth to work. That's as simple as that. What if what is true became visible everybody who needs to know it, right? You know, it might sound naive. You know, some people may even say, Well, that could get very messy, right? Like, if you know everything about anyone, like, that's messy, but on a need to know basis and moderated by AI, which we now have, right that unlocks something magical, which is, oh, the game changes. If the truth is already visible, I don't have to worry about managing up, making sure that my work is visible to my manager, and becoming more visible than my peer, because we're fighting for promotion, right? That's the game today, still without narrative 60 What if your manager didn't just see what you tell them, or what he asked or she asked one or two people about but they see the consensus view on things lately, when honestly collected like honestly and that that information is visible, not just to your manager, but to the manager above and to the CEO. Mm, hmm. And everybody knows that down the chain of command and up the chain of command, they know that what is already happening on the ground and how people really are impacting the workplace and each other is known. Yeah, we focus on actually working, collaborating to game that system of truth, a visible truth, you pretty much need to do your job, and as best so much worry on, you know the BS, let's put it.
Collette: Yes, yes, I could see how This could be absolutely threatening for people. Who are maybe not doing the job as well as others, or are for people who, in particular, higher level leaders who are able to kind of curate information for the people above them. This this level of visibility is a beautiful thing, and I would imagine you have to convince some leaders that it's an actually a good thing for them. What do you think?
Petar: You're hitting on probably then, yeah, the head of the nail in terms of what has been our, some of our. Challenges to this point, not only that, but that, that's a big one, and some of it is maybe justified fear, and some of it is actually like just the newness of it and the perceived threat. But actually, if you zoom into this, this issue, and what is this fear really justified, you find that a lot of people who are in middle or upper management positions, who climb the ladder in the lack of visibility, in the lack of truth, right, they gained they played the game well, right? And they still play the game well, which the game now is, still manage the message, to control the message, right? Well, they could improve their behavior when the game changes, right? Yes, it's a new game for them, but they're not left behind automatically. In fact, they could very well excel in that game. Also, we don't know? Yeah, in fact, I would, I would argue that they will be happier in that new game, because a lot of a lot of busy work that right now is about managing the message and pretending to be doing what you're supposed to be doing, and it's now completely freed up to do, to do your work, and when you go home after a day of after days work in that environment which truth guilty, you're not going to feel like you compromise your moral compass, you're going to feel fulfilled about in the day to day job. So I have a whole white paper on this. But the idea is that the workplace, naturally, is the playground for adults, where we that's what we hone our skills. That's where we that's where we claim try to go in create a proud moment for ourselves and to achieve things just like kids do in the playground, just like teenagers do on the sports court. Yeah, the work is literally where we should be playing and having fun with it. Yet this concept is almost this, like foreign, naive, naively sounding thing, because unlike the playgrounds, unlike sports, we don't have immediate, honest measure of success. We don't have the reality surfaced. Yeah, would the basketball game be fun if you're scoring all the points but the other team actually gets it, or maybe it's another player that gets the credit. That's a good analogy. It will, yeah, that's actually what's happening at work.
Collette: Right? Okay, so I'm going to challenge you and share this with you. One of my previous guests, Trevor, challenged me with this, and it really, it had me rethinking this. So I'm the same as you. I'm like, Yeah, open communication at work, obviously, that's better than stifled, overly structured conversations, at least in terms of functionality and being able to really move the needle forward. And you know, he helped me see with Open360 that leaders might not embrace it, because it literally changes their work. And even though, yes, it's possible that they could excel and do well in this new world of leadership, it's terrifying to be successful right now and then have your job absolutely changed to something that you don't know what your capability or competency is. And then there's this other factor of and this I got from crucial conversations or vital old, Vital Smarts, but they talk about how we overestimate motivation as a problem with adults, and underestimate ability, and that, you know, you so and from my perspective, many leaders struggle with ability when it comes to communication, management, those sorts of things, and by the time they become leaders, no one is going to raise their hand and say, I don't know how to Do this. Can you help me out? That feels absolutely threatening, and so I can really see what you're saying about Yeah, you have the opportunity to do this the right way. We all have a chance to reset and begin operating more in a more truthful way. And I could. Also see how for leaders who are currently maybe even feeling like I'm just barely hanging on right now, yeah, what does that even look like for me? So what would you say to leaders who are thinking that
Petar: There's really, I hear two parts of your question. I almost want to start with the second one. The first is, well, yeah, but you need to be a little bit more grounded in almost like how one's behave and how they make choices. And good luck. Good luck changing what managers and leaders already used to doing, since they're already a little insecure about the current state, let alone shake it up, right, right? That's the first part. I'll address that in a second. The second part is that the manager's job is actually very hard, precisely because feedback so hard to gather and deliver. It's just very hard. It is, right? Yet we put people in the work environment in a position that, you know, I have toddlers at home, and I now equate it to like the parent, your manager is like your parent, right? And but they're not actually right, but we're putting them in a position to be acting like a parent to their direct reports, like, let me sit you down and tell you how you should be doing your work better, right? That's an uncomfortable and not very human thing, right, which is why we need training, right? I mean, your software does a great job in trying to help people with that very difficult thing. Yeah, and neuro 360 takes away something like probably 80% of the need for those conversations. Wow. Need to happen. But what if the manager knows that feedback already is getting delivered, disintermediated and delivered in a very action focused way to their direct reports? Yeah, when they have their feedback conversations, it's not arguing. Are you good communicator, you know? Are you really solving the challenges of the day? Because we know the consensus view. Mm, hmm. Your direct reports knows it. I know it. Instead, we focus on coaching focus. Okay, this is true. Yeah. You don't have to get defensive about this. This is where we are. Okay, we can focus on coaching. So actually, America 60 tackles that challenge, the human challenge of feedback in a very, very effective way, because it presents like a, like a gallop pole, if you will, like a happening, the no nonsense, like truth, like, Well, I think it's this delivers it in a non confrontational, not non threatening way, because it's not tied to review. So you bonus, it's just for your own self awareness, and allows managers to then better mentor their direct reports. I want to turn to the first part of the question, unless you have some...
Collette: No keep going.
Petar: It is management malpractice to think that closing your eyes to the truth will get you far. I'm here to tell you that for managers who are afraid what Mirror 360 may show up as truth, you will be swiped swept by what's coming with AI and Gen Z. It's a matter of maybe two years, maybe five years. But it's happening. AI doesn't have the patient for inefficiencies like the current systems. And Gen Z doesn't have the patience for BS politics. They're used to the social media, instant feedbacks, like, likes, dislikes. They don't they don't come to work and look up to the manager to be like, Oh, tell me how I should do better, right? Our generation, right? Yeah, they almost seem unmanageable. Gen Z, right, but that's the new energy that's already coming. That's the That's the reality. So if you're a 45-50 year old manager, holding on to some old stereotypes of how things should be, and sitting here trying to justify the current system of feedback and the current lack of truth at work. I want to get up on stage with you and hear your hear your perspective, because I, I can tell you, in the room of 1000 people, you will find less than 50 that will agree with that point of view. It's just not a thing, right? Yeah, we know the right answer. We do on the inside, right, like we know the truth is better yes, and businesses that don't get on this train fast enough left behind because AI accelerates. The efficiency accelerates productivity tremendously, but it has to be based on truth the moment you layer AI on top of garbage, which is what a lot of actually software now do, yeah, layer AI on digitized formality,
Collette: False information, yeah, bad data.
Petar: Good luck going off the cliff. Okay, yeah, we'll be making a lot of a lot of choices. AI will be recommending a lot of things, but it's based on garbage. Yeah, right? Mirror 360 can it introduces the truth. Then you layer AI on top of that, and you see magic happen.
Collette: Yes, it's so powerful. And I think Petar, one of the things that's so powerful is that you are different from other platforms and systems who are using you are AI with heart, with, purpose, with greater mission, you know, and really trying to help people move through the dysfunction of the current system and get to the place that is workable. You can only work from the truth, right? Anything else is just a house of cards. So for those leaders who are maybe our age and feeling unsure about how to lead differently, what would you say they need in order to get caught up like if I'm a leader and I'm listening to this, and I don't know what you're talking about, help me understand, like, what it is that I'm missing, that I need to that I need to know.
Petar: Yeah, well, first I need to tell you, we're all in this together. None of us have all the answers, and none of us know what's going to happen a year or five years from now, but we know something big is happening as we're speaking. I can spend another hour on AI and what that means, but we know things are changing. We need to give ourselves a break, that this will feel scary and overwhelming, but we're in this together. And if you actually have an honest conversation with another person in your positions, in your shoes, they probably feel the same fear, insecurity, like, what does this mean for me? Am I a good leader? All of that. What my genuine and very heartfelt belief is that when you democratize truth, you know, make it visible, no matter what it is, whether it's like, oh my god, it's worse than I thought, oh my god, the very fact that you now have your blind spots found that you now can open your eyes to what's actually true, because that already is true. It's people, they behind your back, they talk about it. It's just all of this ambiguity. The moment you see the truth is the moment you know what to do, right? You know what to do, like, yeah, you know. You don't know it now, because you don't know the truth, but the moment you do, you can move forward and as I mentioned on my other answer, AI will force us to either be Efficient or we'll be left behind. You cannot be efficient without truthful awareness.
Collette: Or Yes, absolutely,
Petar: Did that answer your question? I know there were a lot of elements to it.
Collette: Yes, no, that's perfect. And you know, to your point, there is right now, we have a lot of old, slow systems at play in organizations, and it's just like decisions are being made around old data or bad data. It's not even real. It's just a structure that feels like, you know, checking the box and achieving this thing that you have to do, but it's not actually helping people with performance. Yeah. And also, to something you said, it's like you can only manage the things that you're aware of. Truly, the awareness is the beginning of the ability as a leader or any human being to manage the information, to manage the situation. Awareness is key. And what you're saying is, I know the biggest fear, I think probably for all of us, is that we're going to see something that's negative about ourselves. Evolves that's critical, that's, you know, harsh or hard to hear. And yes, that could happen, and when you know what that is, you can begin to manage it.
Petar: Like tell you that our fears in our heads and demons like, sort of the fear of the unknown, the anxiety of how am I really, yeah, actually a lot worse than the reality. Yes, we found this in the data. So actually, in pilots and in client accounts, we see that actually people like each other quite a bit. In fact. And there are other sort of signals that actually is true. You know, when people go on like a camp around the fire, they start sharing, and they start explaining themselves, almost in love with each other, like, hey, I really appreciate this about you. It's like, really, I thought I'm, you know, so it's a human thing to be our own worst critic, own worst sort of demon. When you see the comprehensive view from our perspectives, usually nine out of 10 is like, Oh, wow, wow. It's even like, not so much I'm better than I thought, but like, I'm surprised that in people's heads, that's the perspective on me. Yeah, it alleviates a lot of the imposter syndrome anxiety at work. It allows you to just focus on the next day at work with the knowledge that you do something, somebody else sees it, because they're all collaborating in some ways, and you don't have to report back to the manager that you did that thing, right? Yeah. Really, it's just it will become visible with within a few weeks, that person will be asked about you very quickly. In 20 seconds, they'll be like, Oh, yeah. Like, better was great. Like, he helped me with this perfect right, and and I think it releases a lot of the stress and anxiety.
Collette: That's a beautiful reframe. I think you're absolutely right. I my son is almost seven, and we recently had this conversation where he was he plays basketball, well, just a couple of different sports, and he loves to play them at home, but when it's time for the game, he gets nervous that he's going to make a mistake, that he's not going to play well, like all the worst case scenarios go through his mind, and the last time that happened, I said, Well, You can choose to think about whatever you want. So why are you choosing to think about what's the worst thing that could happen? Let's think about the best thing that could happen. And he started imagining like making a winning shot, or everybody cheering from it for him, or doing a great job. And what you're describing is absolutely right, and I love that you have data to back that up, is that our worst fear is that it's going to reveal something bad.
Petar: Yeah, the other thing that shows up in the data, which is kind of a no brainer, simplicity of it, but it's actually very powerful, which is when people see that they have some areas for improvement, and that's what we can show. It's like, very quickly. It's like, oh, maybe communication, maybe solving problems, maybe following high standards. We have these, like, high level categories, but also like, some nuggets of like, hey, maybe, maybe try this right, delivered anonymously, the very people who kind of surface to the bottom of the crown, which, by the way, bottom of the crowd, doesn't mean they're terrible, like, in fact, from what they see, they're like, Okay, I'm pretty good, but I have improvements. That's really how the scoring is made to quantify that. Within a few weeks, they start improving. No other intervention. They just now know who I could see that have guessed right? Who could have guessed that if they knew their blind spots, they would try to work on that. Yeah, and it is, it is amazing. It's like, Why? Why aren't we doing this everywhere? Uh huh, so true.
Collette: That's something I hadn't thought about Petar, but just the day, it's digestible information, because it's not like you know you're waiting for some formal event or anything like that. You're just getting information trickling in on an ongoing basis about how you're doing. And so it's not like, usually, probably one big thing to change or something major. It's just like, if you could do this a little differently, or do that a little differently, and yeah, that's easy.
Petar: And because we have standardized what we ask, how we ask it, there's a lot of math behind it. Do the. Time weighted average in like a time series. So it's like a new reflection comes in and automatically, kind of bumps potentially your score bit or lowers it, but not overly so, right? So that you start seeing your real time improvement, like you start seeing the improvement. What I told you about these folks, that within weeks they start improving is because people notice, oh, like, maybe I'm going to say they're great, not just well, but they're great. We have more signals like that. We start detecting that that's actually an improvement, just right, sustained. And they can even see the sliders, like, where they see, like, Oh, I'm moving. I'm moving to the right. I had a user, literally, because it was through a referral, and she screenshot her mirror, and it's like, oh, man, you know, like, I'm a leader, and my leadership was not very good, but I had some suggestions. And then two months later, she sent me the same screenshot with all the arrows on the sliders going to the right, ah. And she would just think, mirror 360 works.
Collette: That is amazing,
Petar: Because in her eyes, it's like, that's the whole point, right? Like, I see I try to improve, and I see that I'm improving, yes.
Collette: And you get it almost like immediate reinforcement when you see that little thing moving in the right direction. That's very reinforcing, because not only did you improve, but now people are noticing that you're improving too. So you get that feedback as well.
Petar: And it's not just your manager saying so, where you discount it, where you're like, well, he would say so because, like, he saw this one thing, right? You're like, always discounting a single person's perspective, yeah? Which you should Yes, this one is everybody you work with. Yeah? So, so it's much more powerful than anything we have today.
Collette: Man, you are the future of performance management. Yeah.
Petar: Look, not me. It certainly got. I got the inspiration from another coworker of mine early in career, actually, in my last job, right? And I really am staying away from taking credit for all of this, because it's so serendipitous, like how the idea struck my personal experiences, and then some of the conversations I've had with people like you, right? Like as we were building the product, like some ideas come so in many ways, it's like this thing needs to exist in the world. I happen to be the first person to kind of see it. But at this point, we're seeing so many people leaning in, like, you like, you know, consultants. Now we have partners who are really inspired exactly what this can bring to the world. So, yeah.
Collette: Oh, that's beautiful. I can totally relate to that, Petar, I mean, like, it's a community effort on my end as well, so I can appreciate that.
Petar: Thanks.
Collette: Okay, so I want to know about your most powerful feedback, and I'm always asking people to do this, Petar, but yeah, I want you to tell me in first person, like, I want you to take us there and tell us like as if it's happening right now. This is where I am, this is the situation, this is what I'm feeling, and bring us to you as much as possible.
Petar: Let me try this. No pressure. I'm not the greatest storyteller. I'm more of a analysis person. So, good exercise. Okay, so I'm 25 I'm one year into my first career, kind of job in finance, and my female boss brings me in for some feedback. It wasn't the formal review, but it seemed serious. It seems like, hey, you know, I want to talk to you about something in my head immediately, like my stomach kind of tightened, because I could tell it's like a feedback thing, and I remember, you know, going into the room, it's like a small, relatively small office, the windows that actually overlooked the ocean in San Diego and, and she's, like she said something of the likes of so better, like, I was hearing from this senior VP, Mike, who had some feedback, and I wanted to relay it to you. And I immediately was curious. I'm like, Oh, I respect Mike. He's very short guy.
Collette: And were you curious or did you have dread at that point?
Petar: I had more curiosity. Okay, more dread before, because it was I'm like, Oh, I would love to hear what he because you know who and you respect him. Okay? I inspect him, I work closely with him. And what followed was a critical feedback, something that I don't usually take lightly. I always want to, you know, do everything right, almost in my family kind of upbringing, almost like mistakes were not well tolerated. So I have this like person of like, okay, I'm trying to predict and meet expectations and exam. And she said, Well, when, when people ask you? And then she phrased it as more general, not necessarily specific example, but something he said in more general terms, that this is kind of my personality. They ask you about doing something like a project, you tend to ask a lot of questions back. But what are we doing with this? Why? Why are we doing this way? You know? Why not this other way? Right? And sometimes it's good to just take, just take it and run, because it, you know, it's it kind of, you know, it takes a lot of, you know, maybe effort. She didn't actually explain why. It kind of bothered him. That's my approach, to just take it. Now, as I was receiving this feedback, my brain was like in defense mode, right? Wait a second. Yes, I do that, but I do it for ABC reasons, right? Yeah, but I didn't say anything, actually, okay, you were thinking it. I was just thinking it. And what I really appreciate about my my boss at the time, is that she actually immediately said her own view, which was actually in contradiction with Mike. Said, well, but I understand why. Sometimes we need to ask these questions in order to, you know, get, you know, to a better result. Yeah, we have to just watch it, the cosmetic element of how you do it, that you don't trigger, you know, so you don't upset the other side. So alleviated that initial defensiveness, because I felt seen, yeah, as a human, I felt validated that okay, I'm not crazy to think that's actually not that thing by itself. But then there was a helpful like reframing, like hey, cosmetically, just watch how he do it so you don't personally offend the person or get them. I thought it so as I walked out of the room, I felt this mixed emotion of bitterness, a little personal angers like, why would he say this? Like, is it really? Was it really that bad? I don't think so. But a lot of appreciation for her to say the direct feedback, what actually was the feedback? Yeah, reframe it through her perspective, her opinion, and ultimately help me drive to an actionable like behavior. Yeah, to move on.
Collette: That's a beautiful example, Petar, because you're right it you, you kind of have all the and you did a wonderful job. I think you have told the best story of anybody here. So, you know, yes, um, but I it's really that, I feel like that's what happens for a lot of people. It's so unknown you can never really prepare for a feedback conversation, because you're only like 50% of the conversation if you're having it with one other person. So it feels almost always, I think, really vulnerable because you're walking into an unknown. And so this mix of feeling of like dread and then okay, curiosity and then relief that you felt seen and also validated by your boss, but still confused about, like, what this feedback was really about or what it's telling you. So I think that is just a normal illustration of what feedback does to us internally. So what did you do? What did you do with that feedback?
Petar: Well, I still remember to this day, which tells you about the power of feedback we I think one of the things I've realized over the years is that we have memories only when we are alert, awake for the moment. We don't have memories when we're kind of in our head, in our thinking. Yeah. So when somebody gives us feedback, we are usually like all eyes and ears. We're away. We want to hear like even the micro signals, right? So, but, but what I did is, you know, and I don't remember so much about what I did, because it wasn't necessarily a moment of awakeness to my head, but to this day, I recognize one that that's a little bit about my persona, right? Like that generally, always try to dig for the reason behind the activity, yeah. And I sort of continue to own that, to be like, well, that's my persona, and frankly, it's part of my strength too, not over corrected on that, but the cosmetic element of like, oh yeah, but the other side is also another point of view, and they would experience my potential persona in potentially just not their productive way. If I don't massage my messaging properly is also very helpful. So you have to ask other people, yeah, but I have not heard that feedback since so, so maybe just look, we don't get enough feedback. We don't, yeah, it's quality feedback. So I'm not saying I didn't do that again, but maybe, maybe I've improved since.
Collette: Well, I think so. Part of what we teach at open 360 is you get to choose what to do with feedback. Feedback is just another person's perspective, and you can choose to accept it, reject it. Reserve judgment, accept part of it, reject part. Like, the options are endless, really, and so it's not that you actually have to internalize anything you could outright reject it, if that's what you chose to do, unless you heard, unless it was a pattern. So, like, how do you choose based on what you said? I think I might know your answer. But how do you choose how to filter feedback and what to take in and what to kind of leave on the table?
Petar: This is probably the hardest question you've asked, because, on the one hand, and this is part of just my own learning growth philosophy. On the one hand, I generally agree that everyone's perspective is valid. It's valid from that perspective, yes, it's true for them by definition, exactly for them, as long as it's honest, right? Like, obviously, if it's the formal review thing and they write something and maybe using chat GPT, I mean, yeah, you might as well just discount that, right? But if it's honest, that's a valid perspective. Now, what we do with it? Well, you have to put it in context of your perspective, because you have your own perspective. You have your own thoughts skills, and ultimately, you're the center of of because it's feedback on you, right? So if you're the center of the subject of this feedback, one perspective is clearly just one perspective that's, yeah, as long as you take it for that, you know, I know the way you have handled it is, you know, obviously, for the use case of, what are you doing makes sense? I think mentally, what we could do is just to table it. It's like, okay, that's one perspective. The other perspective, if you're that interested about this thing that they're talking about, maybe seek the other perspectives on the same thing to understand, Okay, what's the holistic external view of me outside? Yeah, clearly I have my own view, but right on the inside out, I have a very deep view of it, but it's my view, actually, in our own interface at military 60, that's how we create your own mirror. So you, you are in the center whose perspective matters, and start seeing popping around you, senior, junior people, peers and clients. So, so you're like the sun in the center, and the clients that are either close to you, if they work closely or far from you, if you're sporadically working on occasion, they also matter, but their perspective is a little more detached, a little further away. Yeah, you create your own mirror. The polling algorithm will take that it will generate reflection invitations as needed, but will take into consideration that, okay, well, that just one perspective that's a little farther, or another perspective it's a little closer. It so my mind, my frame of thinking on this, is exactly that like, well, it's a valid perspective that's not but. It's only one perspective.
Collette: Yes, yeah, that's right. And if it's one person's perspective, and that's all you get in the whole scheme of things, then it's probably more about that person than it is about you. And so it's safe to say you could leave it.
Petar: Yeah, but notice that in our current state, most companies, the manager determines the fate and the career trajectory of the direct report. Oh, yeah, big time. But the manager, by definition, is one perspective, right?
Collette: I completely agree. I mean, this is like old data too, Petar so and the fact that we're still doing performance reviews the way that we are is insane to me, because we know that multi rater perspectives are much more objective. It doesn't matter, you know, the language that people are using, or whatever, I think we've, we've tried to create objectivity where it doesn't exist, and instead, what we've done is, like, remove nuance and context from information. It's still subjective. And so what you're talking about with the multi rater is more subjective. It's just absolutely true, yeah, yeah.
Petar: It's just in practice, it's too much work to actually do it. If you try to do it through the bureaucratic levels that HR utilizes literally too much work. It is so much work when the more they do it, the more garbage they collect, because and here's a news flash, employees are not going to be honest when asked by HR, okay, no, no, for good reason. I mean, the HR is a bureaucrat for the company. They risk that they're risk mitigators, not truth tellers, that that's not their role, their role to create the risk for businesses, to keep the trends running. But the truth, you can't go through bureaucracy for that. Yeah. So exactly. So we need to make it simple, fast, which is what neurotics does, and honest, which means automatic and Yeah, almost always guaranteed from the outside. Don't, don't trust your HR on this I will, yeah, yeah, trust the brand from the outside that stands on the promises directly to the employees. This reflecting in mirror. 360 is always anonymous.
Collette: Yes, so let's talk about that. Because you know i And I love that about your tool. I think it makes sense with your tool and our Open360 is very intentionally not anonymous, so that people can learn how to have direct conversations with each other, and actually just can connect and give feedback and do that. So how do you see those two things working differently or similarly in organizations?
Petar: Well, the feedback I just mentioned that still stands in my mind as memory had to be in person, yeah, to know the context who said it, what context understanding that, yeah, that actually I can remember some situation where that was happening so I know the details of the situation, the the narrative that my boss created, right? I needed that also, yeah, to make me absorb that very strong kind of specific thing. And for that, you absolutely need the real, like, human to human element, yeah, in the conversation, I mentioned maybe, like the 80% of the busy sort of, like, hey, what's really happening from all organizational top down perspective, so we work in truth that collected anonymously, automatically, right? Yeah, for coaching, mentoring, to improve on specific things. Like, Hey, okay, tell me. I'm not communicating well. But like, can you tell me a little more? Like, what do you mean exactly? Yeah, that those are the type of conversations. We're not military. Six is not for that, right? Yeah, clearly need proper way to do feedback, and ideally managed by the employee, which is like, 60 is organized. Like, I don't need my parents, the manager, to tell me I have the ability to manage my feedback so I can improve as an adult.
Collette: Yes, as an adult. Thank you very much.
Petar: So I think that's why, when we first met, I was like, Oh my God. Like, completely polar opposite approaches, totally. Polar opposites. Goals, yes, purposes, so, but
Collette: actually like very similar missions to create healthier, more functional workplaces. So, yeah, I love that Petar, because you're really broad and grounding and it's constant and then open 360 is more narrow in terms of time frame in depth, conversation, so you really need both.
Petar: If you will, the horizontal axis changing in time, like any issues friction, like Collette flags that we need to zoom in, and then you're like the vertical axis, like you zoom in. This is, this is what like needs to like, what the details, the actionable, like, like coaching. Mm, hmm, that that is very qualitative. And that one you need to know who said it, why they said it, all that.
Collette: Yeah, so tell me, Petar, your vision of like a utopian workplace, your vision of what work should and could look like with grout when it's grounded in truth, instead of messaging that people choose.
Petar: So it's good you ask for that, because in our sort of foundational documents, if you will, we talk about exactly why. Why do we exist, and what is the workplace after merger 60, we have a trademark actually on for a better workplace, because ultimately, that's what truth will do to the workplace. It will make it better. So what does that mean? So first thing is, work becomes visible automatically. Okay, it's visible automatically. So people's voices are continuously heard all the way up to the levels, like, higher the organization this, I don't, I don't think I need to tell you why this is good. But like, if work is visible, then we actually excited to do more good work. Yes, if work is invisible, we're like, oh, well, I can scarf off all over here, yeah, and I just need to make my manager think I'm doing good work, and that's all I need. The other is that leaders are in sync with their teams. What a novel concept to have understand what's happening on their teams in real time, right? Organizations, you know, it's an organism. It's a bunch of people working together. We don't have another word for it. Company, it's a company of people. The whole point is that you have a lot of people that need to gel together in an organized fashion to produce something. How are leaders able to do that if they don't even know what's happening on their teams? So the novel concept is, in the better workplaces, they do think decisions because they're in sync, decisions then become grounded in truth are timely, right? And they because they draw from the same source of truth. That's the only way for leaders to do their job well, the only way if their decisions are not based on truth and timely. It's a capsule, right? Yeah, okay, sometimes not. In fact, my perspective is that in soon enough, if companies are operating like they are now, is that operating in truth? The competitive disadvantage to stay in the swamp of ambiguity, almost little, little to companies. The only reason why they're not dying right now is because all of the companies in the same swamp.
Collette: Yes, absolutely right.
Petar: But you know what we know is that startups are eating their lunch all the time. That's why companies like HP, Xerox, Collette, they ultimately start to slowly die. They sink into the swamp of ambiguity. They cannot organize themselves well enough to stay competitive. So new companies pop up. They haven't been yet swamped exactly time they will too, right? They think to the bottom of the, you know, a whole graveyard of all companies that could not survive the lack of truth, right? And very quickly, I'll run through the other things in our vision, mismatches, mismatch. Just of people to teams, skills to job description quickly corrected form. They illuminate. It's illuminated so that people never feel out of place. How many people spend years in the wrong job because they don't have that instant feedback and clarity of like, am I even good here? Yeah, yeah, that should not be happening. Teamwork, Team working together for the first time when everything becomes visible, I'm incentivized to help that person in the other department. I'm incentivized to think creatively, help the intern, because they all reflect on me. So I embedded incentive to be collaborative, not just out of niceness. Yeah. And finally, political gamesmanship will no longer determine one's advancement. Truth will and I like to say Horrible Bosses will be no more, uh huh, and not have a toxic leader survive the light of day.
Collette: The light of the truth.
Petar: Yeah, they can only perpetuate that, that toxic behavior if the truth remains hidden. Mm, hmm. But as I mentioned, the future belongs to the truth. The future with AI with Gen Z demands truth. So it's only a matter of time, I think, before we see that vision. I just hope that Mirror 360 is the platform that can bring this to the world as fast as we can.
Collette: Yes, Petar, you are amazing. You are amazing, truly. And I love mirror 360 and I, one of these days I'm going to say, Yeah, I knew Petar when he just started his business. But you're going to be, well, there, up there. We're going to be up there together.
Petar: The thing is, my goal, and anyone listening to this, is to invite people who connect to the mission to connect, the truth has to be visible for and to swim together. Everybody has a role to play in this transition to a better workplace. And yes, and I'm honestly, I see myself as like a vehicle, like to bring people in, and not even myself. Really the platformer six, the business we're building, the movement, the partnerships, that go to market. And I just love that we connected, Collette, because what you're building is so complimentary and so ultimately driving towards the same goal. And I'm thankful to this platform also.
Collette: Yeah. Thank you so much, Petar. It's I really believe that you were meant to bring this to life. It shows up in every conversation that we have about this, and it is actually happening. You have brought this to life. So I'm gonna include, if it's all right with you, white paper and some more information when I sit, when I post this. And thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me, Collette, yeah, and Bye, everyone.
