If you’ve ever fumbled through how to say the right thing—or felt like no one was listening—this episode is for you. Jenny Barker has spent her career guiding organizations through moments that matter most: change, crisis, and reputation risk. But what makes her approach different is how grounded it is in humanity.
In this episode of Feedback Fix, Collette Revere talks with Jenny Barker, founder of Gray Owl Strategy, about the real work of communication: making people feel seen, heard, and respected. They unpack what it means to lead with clarity (not just spin), how Jenny’s shift from corporate to consulting changed her view on balance, and why “perfect” communication is a myth that gets in the way of connection.
In this episode, you’ll hear:
Jenny’s mix of wisdom, warmth, and grounded experience is a reminder that clear communication isn’t about the right words—it’s about reaching the right hearts.
Watch the episode on YouTube or listen on Spotify or Apple.
Collette: Welcome to feedback fix where we get real about the messy conversations that move us forward. We are live podcast, which means no scripts, no do overs, just unfiltered, honest conversations happening as they unfold. I'm Collette Revere, and today I'm sitting down with Jenny Barker, veteran communications leader and founder of Gray Owl Strategy, where she helps organizations navigate change, crisis and reputation risk with clarity and trust. She's an accredited PR professional and a fellow of the Public Relations Society of America. Welcome Ginny. Hi. Good to see you. Good see you too. So will you share a little bit about what you're working on right now.
Jenny: Oh, I love what I'm working on right now. I think going into solo PR practice a couple of years ago has given me such an opportunity to work on a variety of projects. And so I'm helping a healthcare company right now as they get ready to build a mental health hospital in Alaska. I've got another project I'm working on where I'm building out crisis communications plans for a multi location manufacturing company across the US. And then I have a couple of clients. My heart is in the nonprofit sector. And given everything that is going on in our country right now and with federal funding cuts and so forth, I'm assisting a lot of nonprofits as they navigate those changes and try to stabilize and serve the clients that they are within their service areas.
Collette: Yeah, so what possessed you to go out on your own and move, you know, start your own business in the PR space?
Jenny: Well, I think for me, I had been in the agency environment right out of college, and had the opportunity to work for two incredible publicly traded companies and in house roles, went back to agency, and kind of found myself in this life stage where my daughter is in middle school now, and I struggled with infertility, I went through the adoption process. I worked too hard to become a mom, to outsource parenting, and so this has afforded me a bit more flexibility than I had in my corporate roles and agency roles. So I'm so grateful for that. Getting to watch my daughter grow up, getting to basically be an Uber for friends. So much about what's happening in her life, and yeah, the things that she and her friends are facing, I also think I wouldn't have had the confidence to do this if I hadn't watched my husband go through it on his own, he started a video production company back in 2012 and you know, it was just so fun to see him kind of build something from the ground up. And so, you know, once I was off and running, I thought, oh, I want to do that too. Yeah, it's me. Every now and then we have the opportunity where our work kind of overlaps and get to work on projects together.
Collette: Very cool. I can totally relate to that. I remember when we adopted our son, I did not want to work. I didn't I just wanted to be a mom. It took so long to your point to be able to get to this point that I just didn't want to do it, and my husband suggested, oh, well, we can get a nanny. I'm like, No, I want, I want to pay somebody to do my job and I want to do that. I don't. I don't want somebody else to do that. So I can totally relate and appreciate that struggle of trying to balance career and family and have everything you want.
Jenny: It is, I balance is a misnomer. I really think it's kind of this harmonizing that we have to do, yeah, you know, some days are harder than others.
Collette: I love that. Okay, tell me more about harmonizing, though, because I love that, that, you know, balance is, this is what we're all working to achieve, but maybe it's not a realistic goal.
Jenny: I think for me, it was starting to realize, and I think you know, into my mid 30s and early 40s that my energy is finite, right? And so I see so many folks that spread themselves so thin and they just feel like they're not able to perform well at anything that they're doing. And I started kind of opting for this, like quality over quantity approach, and it's been so helpful. I think the other thing that I've started to recognize is that for me to function and lead. Well, I have to have practices that help ground me and root me, and sometimes that means, you know, taking a couple of hours and being offline or going for a walk and just actually being in nature. I wish I learned these things a little earlier in my life.
Collette: But at least you learn them. I think that's beautiful. I was just thinking, as you were saying it, that you do it preventatively. Now, instead of it's something that you have to employ, because you literally work yourself and to the point where you're sick and you can't work for a few days, or something like that. But it's beautiful to really accept that there are limitations, I think that's the first step, and then figure out what exactly you need. Yeah, so I'm excited for you to be here because of your background. So you How did you get into PR? What? How does that start?
Jenny: Well, let me tell you what. Okay, when I was in high school, I thought I wanted to be an orthopedic surgeon, and so in my little hometown, I convinced this doctor to let me shadow him. And I mean, I don't know he let me observe in surgery on one morning, and the first one, I almost blacked out. I It was so gross to me, and I realized how physical the work was, and I thought, This is not for me. Let me go back to the drawing board. So I remember talking with my guidance counselor at my high school, and she was like, you know you're you love writing that is. English is your favorite subject? Have you thought about a career in public relations? I don't even know what that is. So I was so fortunate. She connected me with the head of PR for our local Chamber of Commerce, and then the head of PR for the local community college in my hometown. And so I had internships in PR before I even graduated from high school and I fell in love with it. For me, it's it, it's a little bit more nuanced than marketing. I think about marketing as matchmaking, right? Like, who's the audience, what's the tactic to get them there, and what's the right messaging in between. But PR is so much more than that, it's truly looking at all of the communication components that that roll up to move an organization forward and to keep it aligned with its mission, vision and values, and help make sure that it is successful. And so I majored in PR at Lipscomb University here in Nashville, and had a couple of internships here in the city. At the time, Nashville had more PR firms per capita any other city in the US, which blew my mind. So it was a strategic bet to land here. And I was really fortunate to work in a small agency right out of college. And I think being in a small agency, I had the chance to do a lot more than some of my peers that were in larger organizations. So that accelerated my career pretty quickly. At the time I moved into working for HCA, their flagship hospital, and leading communications there. Then there was this big flood that happened here in Nashville in 2010 it flooded Gaylord Opryland resort and Convention Center. It closed it down for about six months, and I got a call out of the blue to ask me if I would consider interviewing for that position. And I gladly said, Yes, I was 27 years old. And I thought, oh my goodness, it like I'm in over my head. But they thought I could do it. It's me and I, I am so very grateful for the opportunity that I had to serve on that executive committee at that it's almost a 3000 room hotel. There were five business units that I was overseeing during that time. They became acquired by Marriott. And, you know, being able to work with a global travel company was incredible. But ultimately, I realized, to grow my career, I would have to move to Bethesda to Marriott's corporate headquarters, which just wasn't in the cards for us. We've built a life here in Nashville. So went back to agency. I think one of the things I've learned about myself is that I'm a stabilizer. I'm the type of person that goes in and tries to leave things better than I found it. And when I feel like I've done as much as I can, I realize it's time for me to pull back and let others lead and grow. And so in my last role with an agency, we did just that, like I came into a small, fast, growing agency, got them stabilized, and three of the young women that I worked with there are now running that agency. It's incredible to see that growth. Yeah. Yeah. So that's a lot of detail, but it's been such an awesome field, and you get such exposure to so many different sectors, yeah, so I'm really fortunate that I have kind of this broad view of what are some of the commonalities that every organization faces, yeah, application challenges.
Collette: So what do you think that is? What are the commonalities that you see across organizations with communication in particular?
Jenny: Yeah, I jokingly refer to it as communication constipation. I think one of the hardest things, and I mean, I've experienced this, and I've seen it play out with client after client through the years, is that you have this grand vision or a strategic plan or a business plan, and the C suite sees it one way, and frontline workers don't understand their role in moving that forward. And so there may be great things that are happening or adjustments that need to happen. But if you don't have that proper cascading two way communications model, things can get stuck along the way. I love that you're all about feedback, because I think that is so helpful and important for helping organizations get unstuck and be able to gain action. And it's, it's so important for personal growth and development too. I mean, we're, we're in a time where people aren't going to stay at the same job forever, and so while we have them, how do we develop them into their best person, so that they have skills that they can take and move on? And, you know, they may be wearing back at some point, it's hard to say, right?
Collette: Totally. Oh, I love what you're saying. So I Oh, this always happens to me. I have too many thoughts at the same time, but one of mine is this, because I've experienced this as well. So I want to know how you manage this of cascading goals. Is something that all companies want to accomplish. Right in my experience, it's, it's been people cascade from higher levels, but are not connected enough to the work to really be able to to get that cascaded goal down into where it needs to be. How do you do that?
Jenny: Well, I think it really starts with a posture of listening. And I will say one of one of the most humbling moments that I ever have of seeing this in practice was when Gaylord Opryland was acquired by Marriott. And we, I mean, I remember, I was sitting in budget presentations with Bill Marriott. David Marriott would come to the hotel, and you would see them walking through the hotel, you know, talking to housekeepers, talking to Bellman, talking to servers at the restaurant, saying, Hey, what are you seeing? What's working well, what's not. You know, how can we clear the path? And I think seeing that in action was so beautiful, because I think it really starts like the top level, the C suite has to own it and act on it for that to to have a trickle down effect, and for other leaders to understand the importance of it the other pieces too. I mean, I think this is the thing about having done this for over 20 years now, simplicity is so critically important. We are moving so fast, and there are so many channels for communication these days. The research is showing you have to hear messages multiple times to be able to absorb it fully, and so sometimes I will have conversations with executives where they feel like they are just like a broken record about what they're saying over and over. But that consistency is so incredibly important, and it creates stability in a way that helps people kind of understand, you know, where are we headed and why and how do I fit into where, where we're going?
Collette: Yes, okay, I'm going to ask you a tricky question, okay, like, what percentage of leaders, do you feel like are equipped to do that? Kind to communicate? Well, where they are?
Jenny: Oh, I don't know. I want to be optimistic here, but I really think maybe 30%.
Collette: Yeah, I think that is optimistic. Yeah, right. And so you are really a communication expert. You're obviously good at this. Listen, you talked your way into an orthopedic surgeon's office in high school, and I know I hear what you're saying about. The opportunities you've been afforded, but I also know you, and know that you had something to do with those opportunities as well. So this is an area where you really, just probably really innately good. So how do you help? What do you do for leaders who are not naturally equipped or experienced to do this,
Jenny: I think this is where it becomes a little bit of coaching and counseling and try to understand their voice so that I can do that effectively. And I think the other piece of it too is that it public relations has such a such a bad reputation, and it has this connotation with spin or with just getting publicity. And it's so much more than that, we've actually started to adopt the term strategic communications because of that. But I think there's something really magical that happens when you elevate communications and make it a functional part of the C suite, yeah, if, if you do not have a strong communications person, because it's a support function for every department, right? I mean, I think about through my career, I've had to help communicate reductions in force. I've had to help communicate pay step increases. You know, there are so many things that roll down that need to be packaged in such a way that people can understand, how does this affect me, and do I need to be concerned, and what's the next step? What action is needed on of me? So I think, you know, some, some leaders definitely do it more innately than others, but it works so much better when it's embedded and it's touching all of your your major departments, HR, sales, even operations, right. There are things operationally that happen in an organization that you've got to be able to equip your your leaders in that department, to be able to flow that information down, yeah, and to have that that way, to bubble up things that are emerging issues before they become reputational threats. I think that's where so much of my practice over the last couple of years, I did so much in crisis management over the last I mean, it's been a part of all of my roles, but I would say it's become an even bigger passion of mine in the last couple of years of helping organizations make sure that they're prepared for reputational threats and the things that pop up. So oftentimes, I'm going in with organizations now and doing threat assessments of kind of partnering with risk management, partnering with the C suite to say, hey, in this operation, what are the things that could go wrong, and how do we get ahead of those so that when a crisis strikes, we're able to be very nimble and get ahead of it before it ends up on social media or all over the place, being able to control the message in a way that protects your organization and helps your employees feel confident in the way that you are moving forward, gives your customers reassurance and so forth. Yeah,
Collette: Well, I love what you're saying, so to let me let me say it back to you, and you tell me if I'm right about this and what I'm hearing, but it sounds like you're saying instead of having this idea of equipping all the leaders to be great communicators, it's equipping them through somebody like you or somebody where communication is actually really a strength. And so have that there as a resource so that leaders can be good at what they do and have support for the things that they're not great at.
Jenny: Absolutely. And I think that's that has been the most fun in my job over the years of I think a strong communications person is usually not in the spotlight. They are a quiet force who's working very much behind the scenes to make sure that the executives are shining and that the leaders in the organization are equipped to communicate well, and they're reporting back on what's not working so that adjustments can be made along the way. Right?
Collette: I love what you're saying, because I've always kind of framed it more negative. I've said, you know, when leaders don't have the ability to communicate, well, they over leverage structure. But the kind of structure I was thinking about is performance conversations as opposed to actual conversations, or, you know, the check the box, sort of activities that make you feel like you're moving forward, but maybe don't actually accomplish what you're trying to achieve. But this is different, because this is, this is a. A functional structure. And so that makes sense to me that that's not necessarily a bad way cope and kind of manage talent. It just needs to be a functional, good structure that aligns with your culture.
Jenny: Yes, and I think that's part of it too, like communication. Strong communication is critical for strong culture. And so I look at what I do as trying to be as proactive as possible, so that you are if you're being clear about what's expected up front, you're not, hopefully you're engaging with people in a way that makes them feel connected and see the value in their work and how their day to day tasks connect with it. So that you don't get into a pip situation. Yeah, you don't have to over manage data performance. Or, I think about some of the, you know, some of the structures in performance management where you may have, I don't know, 10 direct reports on your team, and they're all doing really well, yeah, you're having to put this report together of like, okay, if, if we have to get to a cut situation, who are the first three to go right? Like, it can work very there are some things in HR structures that can be improved upon. And I think some of the best HR managers are seeing that. And even the approach over the last several years of moving into HR business partners, it's, it's a good movement, but you also, you've got to have a communications partner as part of that as well?
Collette: Yeah, that makes so much sense. I've always internally in organizations, communication has primarily been more marketing and those sorts of things, from my experience, although, when a crisis arises, that's certainly a piece. But that makes sense is talking about embedding communication, because we know, or at least that's what we talk about here is how that really improves the culture.
Jenny: And to change. And your business doesn't exist without your employees. So when it comes to communications, it's employees first. Always Okay, right? If they don't hear it from you first, how can they be on the front lines when, when customers are asking questions, right? So I am so passionate about internal communications first and foremost, because they're also your biggest brand ambassadors, right? If someone loves their job and loves what they're doing, that's contagious, and it will build loyalty with people staying with the company, and it it will come forth in the service that they provide your customers as well. Yeah.
Collette: So what do you think is the best strategy to communicate with employees? Is it their direct manager communicating with them? Is that a town hall bringing everybody together and hearing from the CEO. What do you think?
Jenny: It's multifaceted. It takes all of that, and I think that's part of it too. Like you, you may be able to hear it better in a town hall from the CEO, then you hear it from your manager, like, if that's not a good fit at that time, but you have this aha moment in a town hall. I also love, and I've been part of organizations in the past where we do an annual employee engagement survey and getting so practical about those conversations and equipping the leaders to be able to have really open, Honest dialog about what's working, what's not, and where there are opportunities for improvement. Yes, but the key is you can't just have that and put it on the shelf. You actually have to do the work along with it and keep it moving. So I think that's where continual feedback is so critical and important for getting the traction over time. The other the other piece, I'm just going to add this to. I think sometimes we get overly complex with employee communications and thinking about too where, where are people, right? If you are in an organization where the majority of your workforce is checking into a time clock every day, a time clock flyer may be your best bet if there's something urgent going on, right? It's a really old school tactic, but it still works, right? And it's so much better than putting something on Slack and it's passive, where they're going to have to go find it, or they may not be set up. So it just it can vary department by department, but you know your people, and you know how they're how they're going to respond. So you've just, you've got to find the right ways to deliver that in a way that they'll receive.
Collette: Yeah, and I love that, that you're that it's employees first, which makes total sense, is to make sure that they're equipped, they're prepared with the information they need. And. They hear it internally as rather than externally, they hear it first.
Jenny: I mean, it's about respect, right? Yeah, if there was something going on in your own house, you wouldn't want to hear it on the news first.
Collette: No, no, I know. So I keep, I keep using this analogy of when we only have conversations and performance evaluations. It's kind of like a couple only talking during a therapy session, like only actually communicating. Like, how functional is that? How well is that likely to work outside of the confines of that structure, you know? And we're really working in relationships, and there's a more natural, but not totally structured cadence to all that. Yeah, I know that you have two feedback scenarios that you're trying to choose between. So I'm wondering, does one stand out, or would you like to start with one?
Jenny: I think they build on each other. This one of them, it was, it was in the first agency that I worked with, and I, I still, I admire both of these individuals for both examples, so much I don't even know that they know how much impact this feedback had on me. But the first one, I was just so I was fresh out of college, working in this PR agency, and I was so afraid of getting things wrong, like I just wanted to do well. I wanted to perform well. But I think the byproduct of that is that I had this rigidity and the way that I was looking at things, and so, you know, some of it was also just coming out of a textbook. World of things seem very black and white in the textbook, but in practice, there is a little bit more. It's Messier. It just is, yeah. And so this, this singer leader, pulled me aside, and he was like, Look, I see that you want to succeed, but I just need you to learn to love gray.
Collette: That's a big ask for some people.
Jenny: It was so it was also actually kind of funny, because the branding for this company was gray, the paint was, like, it was just, it was kind of like woven into everything, and it was such an obvious thing of like,
Collette: Yes, what Gray Owl Strategy refers to is that,
Jenny: In some ways too, Sue Atkinson was my first boss, and she loved Gray, and she was just such a champion in the PR industry here in Nashville. So I'm so grateful she had. She had recently passed away when I founded my company. And so I do, I have learned to love gray but I also have loved the great gray owl, which is what my company is named after. It has some of the best hearing on the planet. And I think that at my core is communication should really be about listening, first, listening for what's being said, but also what's not being said, so that we can frame the right communication strategy and help you get tightened up and meeting your goals. Yeah,
Collette: Okay, I have so many questions. I have. I want you to tell us how to do this, but also I want to know, okay, so, Jenny, on an Enneagram, you're three,
Jenny: One
Collette: You're one
Jenny: Yes,
Collette: So one is very not gray. One tends to be well, healthy. Ones can be great, but, boy, it's hard. It's harder for once and for threes probably. So how did you manage to do it? One thing to get that feedback and get that advice, but truly, how did you execute? How did you move forward in a way where you really were living more in the gray and changing your perception. I guess.
Jenny: I think it really helps me to just kind of start paying attention to I mean, it was a small agency. There were six of us, right? And so sitting in meetings, learning and just seeing like, Oh, this is what they mean by that. It was so helpful to begin, but it also, I think this was incredible. It was freeing for him to say that to me, I grew up, I'm a preacher's kid, and so, you know, you feel like you're growing up in a glass fishbowl, oh yeah, like you've got to be the example. And you know what you do is, you know, it has an impact on how people view your family, and in my case, my father's ministry. And so I was always, like, very much an achiever. I was valedictorian of my high school. Like, I just, I was like, go, go, go. And I think there. So many good things about that drive to do well that have served me, but it was incredibly freeing for him to say, like, look, it doesn't, it's not ever going to be perfect. Like, there's, there's some messiness to this, yeah, which kind of leads into the feedback I got. You know, several years later, that one was, and I'm going to say his name, because I like so appreciate that he said this, and he's recently retired, but Pete, why in was the general manager of Gaylord Opryland. And you know, there I was. I was so intimidated, because I was, I was the only person under 40 on that executive team. I was one of two women, I knew the stakes were high, and I was putting so much pressure on myself to do well, nobody else was putting that pressure on me. That was just me, yeah, but we had a weekly one on one project, updates, that sort of thing. And he just sat down, he looked at me, and he goes, you know, Jenny Barker, what feels like C work to you, like a grade C is a plus to everybody else. Yeah, it was such an aha moment, because I was, I was working overtime, you know, just trying to get things just right. But in that conversation, it helped me begin to see that some projects don't, don't need my A plus work, right? Like, if it's not super high stakes, if it there, there are some things where good enough is good enough. And I just, I keep coming back to the phrase, and you know, in different periods of my life, don't let perfect get in the way of good. Yeah, continual life lesson for me as an Enneagram one I'm pretty Yeah,
Collette: It's true, and I love that. You're they, you're most impact feedback kind of goes together, because I can only imagine, Janine, I didn't know you were a preacher's kid, but you know, I've had preacher kid friends my whole life, and I know that that can feel very it just if you already came out as one, it's only going to accentuate that you're either good or you're not good. It's black and white and and kind of this thinking and so to it sounds like almost get permission from people that you respect, to not have it together, or to not do your just very best, which must be mind blowing for you.
Jenny: Yeah. So freeing. And I think that was the thing of like, being able to kind of lean into that more. And I think, you know, over time, it helped me to realize I don't have to have it all together. And as I started to kind of look around, some of the best leaders that I know are vulnerable people, they do show some emotion, right? You don't have to be, yeah, it's okay.
Collette: No, it's not helpful to be a robot. You become unrelatable at that point.
Jenny: Yeah, yeah. It all just kind of set me on a pursuit of learning self compassion, and it was so needed. And all of this was before I even had language around the Enneagram, yeah, so I think it's just over time, these things have kind of built on one another in a way that's been so helpful for me.
Collette: That's beautiful. I love that. And I know you and I both love the Enneagram. We find it really gives us language to really understand, first of all, kind of our motivations and almost our instinctual reactions around things, and that they're not bad, but we get stuck in certain patterns, or we tend to see things a certain way. And it's good to know what your pattern is, so that you know you know what's yours to change and what's maybe somebody else's to deal with? You know? Yeah, so I'm curious. I'm imagining like high school Jenny and valedictorian and your movement through these, this early career path. How did so it sounds like you because, you know, we talk a lot about imposter syndrome out there in social media, and, you know, did people have different ideas of, is it a thing? Isn't it a thing? But how did you present and how did you feel? Was there a gap between how you presented and how you felt?
Jenny: Absolutely, I just, I remember, I think it kind of threw me for a loop too, because I was so young and in such a small agency that they would throw me into situations where I'm sitting there with the CEO and having to, you know. Him through a conversation. And so it's funny, I remember like, going shopping and buying suits and things that kind of like, made me look older, because I thought, oh, maybe this will, like, help me be taken more seriously because I was so young and naive I didn't know what I didn't know. But yeah, it just it didn't feel fully like me. I used to joke to my husband, you know, I get dressed up for work or whatever, and he's like, it's Jenny, professional ponytail, normal Jenny,
Collette: Yeah. So how do you do that now? And, and I think you know your Enneagram number and like preferences have something to do with it, and there's no right or wrong way. But do you feel like you still have professional Ginny and family Ginny? And how does that work now?
Jenny: It's a lot more integrated now and then, I'm so grateful for that, like I feel like I can just walk into a room and show up as me. And part of that is, do you think, as you're learning and growing in your career, it takes some time to get the confidence, whereas, I will say, like going through the Public Relations Society of America's college of fellows process is it is the pinnacle of your career in public relations, and you have to have at least 20 years of experience to go through it. Only 3% of PR practitioners across the US have this. And I went through the process as I was starting my own business, just because I thought, well, I just want to know for myself, do I have it? Yeah, and it was such a stamp of validation. It wasn't for anybody else. It was really just for me. Yeah, it has helped me to feel a lot more confident in what I'm doing. And I will also say, I think, you know, parenting a middle school girl, It's so wild. I mean, just seeing like, the insecurities and things that come up, and it's like, kind of taken me back to my own middle school years and how awkward that is of trying on different identities. It has been so beautiful in conversations with my daughter, to when, when I'm struggling or hitting a roadblock on something, to be able to talk about it with her and to help her see that, you know, these are just things that come up in the normal course of life. And you're, you're not always going to feel when you walk into every room like you belong, you know, right? But just keep showing up and keep being your authentic self, and the work that's right for you will find you, yeah,
Collette: Oh, that's I love that, because it sounds like, did you have anybody when you were younger to help you navigate the gray
Jenny: I don't think I did. Yeah, yeah. And I think it's wild, because I realized, you know, since learning more about the Enneagram both of my parents are Enneagram ones too. Oh no, it's wild, but I don't know. I think you know, I had, I had trusted adults, but I just had so much pressure on myself. I gave myself ulcers in high school.
Collette: That is good grief. I mean, that's amazing, Jenny, it's you're, you're so accomplished, and, and there's a price, or there was a price at that point. Yeah, don't you go ahead.
Jenny: Yeah. Well, and I think too. You know, I've dealt with autoimmune disease my whole life, and it's finally under control, but it wasn't until I learned some of the self compassion practices and learning about the Enneagram of how it how important it is for me to step into some practices that give me permission to not be perfect, yeah, like learning how to cook. Finally, I've been fortunate to an incredible cook, but just being able to experiment or do watercolors or things where there's really no pressure, it's been such a gift to learn from some of those practices, and I'm so grateful for feedback along the way. I think it's hard sometimes, especially when you're in a leadership role. And I'll draw from an example here, my volunteer commitments in the Nashville community have really been important to me my whole life. My parents always gave back in their communities, and for me, the place that I did that here in Nashville was the Junior League, and I had the incredible opportunity to be the president of the Junior League of Nashville during their centennial year, which happened to coincide with coming out of the pandemic. And so there was feedback happening from all of our 1500 members. You know, 1500 in Nashville, many accom. Pushed women differing views on should we do in person events? Should we not? What are the masking requirements? There was so much that was happening with that where I think, I think I look back on that too of I was so grateful that I had become more equipped on how to receive feedback before I went into that, because I think it could have taken me down. It was such a good experience overall. I'm so grateful that I got to be part of that and kind of do some things in true Enneagram one fashion, believe it better than bylaws, revisions and, you know, some of the unsexy things with nonprofit board leadership. But I just, I don't know, I think it's like learning to become comfortable with feedback and also recognizing just because you receive it doesn't mean you have to take it and act on it. It's very much dependent on who it's coming from, is it? Is it valid? Like, there's, there are some checkpoints along the way to go, like, Okay, do I really need to check myself on this? How do I need to respond?
Collette: So how do you respond when you're getting 1500 people giving you feedback that's varied and different, and what do you do with that? How do you, how do you respond to that?
Jenny: I think part of it, at least from a communications lens, was just acknowledging varied feedback. And so, you know, and looking at our events, we we did surveys too along the way of our members to say, you know, with data, this is where, this is where we are as a membership organization, on interest of meeting in person, that sort of thing. But just to in any communication to say, like, there, there are varied opinions on this, yeah, but this is what we're hearing from our members, and this is how the board has decided to act based on that. So there I find there are ways to neutralize it. I think too kind of going back to my communications, work professionally, I think that's what's also so special about having mission, vision and values, is that that is neutral, and it provides something that you can always pivot back to to go. Is this aligned? Is it not aligned? Like, how does the organization kind of use that as a litmus test for what it's what it's doing with actions, or in the way that it's communicating, right, all right, living up to this and the way you're doing that.
Collette: So what you're saying is, if is that response is critical. Some sort of response is critical, right? I heard you, I hear you, I see you, and this is what we're doing as a result. So you're saying like you don't have to take the feedback and act on any particular thing, but just to share back.
Jenny: Yeah, right. But I think like you'll hear enough of it from a one category to go, Okay, this is valid. We need to pay attention to this. I think that that's something to kind of think about. Of is there, is there a trend that you're seeing? Yeah, you know, if you're hearing it from multiple sources, and if they respect you enough to provide that feedback, I feel like there is an obligation to thank people for sharing it, yeah, just thank you for sharing that with me. And I think it's also okay, okay to buy time to say, like, I want to take that under consideration. It doesn't, it doesn't it doesn't commit to acting on it, but considering it and thoughtfully consider it right. You may have to sit with it for a while and go like, okay, is this true? Is it right? Is it something I need to make an adjustment on, and if I do make an adjustment on it, who are the people that can help me do that? Who's on my team, who are the mentors I feel comfortable reaching out to for help and guidance on this.
Collette: I feel like that's so important to not try to take it on yourself, and when people feel maybe insecure or you would think that that would lead to asking for more help, but I've seen it more often lead to leave me alone. I've got this, I do this, and it's not necessarily the better way.
Jenny: Yeah, yeah, agree wholeheartedly.
Collette: So Jenny, this is you and I have had many conversations, but I don't know that you know this about me. So we're kind of opposites in terms of the Enneagram and how we operate. So for you, it was very much tied to how well you're doing and whether you're doing the right thing, taking the right path. For me, I have kind of opposite thing going on, and it's interesting. It kind of made me think about when you were talking about how you put yourself in positions where you can be imperfect, like painting or doing something that just doesn't isn't supposed to be any particular way. It's a creative endeavor. I as a nine tend to be the opposite, where I love just showing up, just showing up, and I can help you get anything done. I can, you know, be really productive in those ways. But if I show up and you give me a job to do, I don't like it. I don't feel competent. Or, you know, I am competent, but I don't there's just a different that's a different quality, and I think it's kind of the opposite of what you you have, which is kind of like where our comfort zones are and where our stretch zones are.
Jenny: Definitely so.
Collette: You mentioned kids with in terms of your stretch zone and comfort zone. And one thing I did hear you say is you know that you're trying to give your daughter something that would have been helpful for you. You got other helpful things, but that wasn't something that you had access to when you were a kid. How else does being a parent impact your ability to embrace this messiness?
Jenny: Yeah, I think, I think for me, you know, this is, this is such a silly thing. But, you know, I like order. I really do. And I am married to an Enneagram seven who I joke is, like the Tasmanian album is chaos, and my daughter is showing a lot of Enneagram eight tendencies. And they like, they just don't. They don't care about, like, a pile on the counter the way that I do. So I think it's like they are stretching me in good ways that have helped me kind of focus on, like, does this even really matter? Yeah, nobody cares if there are dirty dishes in your sink at the end of the night, right? What do you have capacity to handle and what are your non negotiables? Right? Like, like, we're not going to have rotting food in the house. Or, like, if the trash is starting to stink, take it out. Yeah, yeah. But I think it's so enriching. I never I think parenting is the ultimate journey in not really having control, because you are influencing another human being. You are teaching and guiding and coaching, but ultimately, it's their life that is unfolding, and they've got to do the work of discovering their own strengths and what they're good at. So I'm enjoying it, and I think I'm relishing that. I It's so bittersweet, like she's 13, and I realize I only have, you know, a handful of years with her under my roof, still, where I get to be part of that. But I'm also, like very much looking forward to I have a running list of someday empty nest hobbies that I like.
Collette: That's amazing. So how, what would you recommend for those of us who haven't been through the kind of training you have and crisis management and culture. How would you recommend? I guess my question is really, what's your biggest tip? The thing that you see most often when you're going into organizations that people might be missing or getting wrong or maybe they're doing it right, but what is the thing that we can pay attention to and should be paying attention to?
Jenny: I think it's really at the at the end of the day, employees just want to feel respected, and part of that is making sure that you're equipping them when, there are big changes that are happening, change management is such a huge piece of what I help organizations with. They want to know, like, how does this impact me? And is there any action needed on my part? And all the questions that come up, I think it's really helpful sometimes, when you're communicating something big. Uh, stepping back to it, sometimes we get too close to it, and we can't see all the questions that someone who would be brand new to this information would ask, or the concerns that they would have, yeah, but you've got to really lead from a place of empathy, of change is scary for so many people, and so how can we provide them with enough information that they feel confident in whatever decision has been made and be vulnerable enough to say like, if you don't know the answer, we don't know yet. We don't know how this is gonna unfold, but what we do know is this is our mission. This is our goal. These are things we're always going to be committed to, right? So providing that reassurance along the way.
Collette: So stability and clarity, it sounds like. Yeah. So what do you what is the best way, in your opinion, to handle resistance or or, what do you think of resistance? Well, what do you think when employees push back?
Jenny: I think of this quote Tractor Supply companies founder, Joe Scarlet. I love this quote. It's if you have a yes person on your team, one of you is unnecessary. I am of the mind where, yes, it's, it's daunting when you have contrarians or folks that are like, Oh, that's never gonna work, or this is not there, I think we have to ground ourselves if we're all on the same team, and those opinions can help sharpen whatever product it is you're trying to produce. Yeah, there's enough trust internally to have that conversation. It can help. It can help make the external communications go better. I think kind of working it out internally before you go external. So helpful.
Collette: Yeah, I totally agree. I've been in teams before where, you know, there people are complaining or bringing things up that you know nobody wants to hear and talking about how positive that is, because it's not fun for the person bringing it up. Typically, it's usually risky, and it's usually a sign that they trust you enough to at least hear what they have to say, if not actually make a change that will improve the situation for them, versus silence, which is, you know, not necessarily, silence can be a really big sign, in my opinion, that something is off.
Jenny: What do you think? I agree wholeheartedly. And so I think that's, you know, going back to the example of the Junior League members, I would much rather hear feedback from 1500 people, yeah, than to hear crickets. It shows engagement, yeah. Still got skin in the game. They want, they want things to be moving ahead.
Collette: And that is absolutely right. So how do you not take that personally as a leader? How do you not carry the weight of all of the you know, feedback that this isn't right and this could be better, and how do you not personalize it and instead, really frame it in that positive way?
Jenny: I think you have to kind of detach from it in some ways to be able to do that and to realize it's not, it's not personal. It really isn't. It's they, they care, and that's why the feedback is being provided. And so assuming positive intent will go a long way.
Collette: Yes, right? It's only helpful. There's no real danger to assume positive intent, but doing the alternative can be really bad outcomes. Yeah, Jenny, I am so grateful that you are here today with us and just sharing your expertise and your hard won wisdom, and I love your feedback moment and the fact that it almost sounds like when you heard it, it absolutely felt like it illuminated a truth for you.
Jenny: It absolutely did impact my trajectory in such a huge way, I'm pretty sure I would have ulcers to this day.
Collette: Yes, and I think that's beautiful, and that is, that is the power of feedback, and that's why, you know, it's important to have those messy conversations, because if your intent is really to share your perspective with somebody and to help them with something, it could be literally a single conversation that just sparks an awareness or a different perspective for somebody else that can truly just change the course. Hours of their career, if not their life, yeah. Well, thank you so much. I'm so grateful for you. I'm grateful to know you, and I love seeing your example, because I love you know, picking your brain and understanding what happens for you and how you think differently. Because I know there are many others out there who are on the spectrum of kind of being achievers or do-ers or be-ers and so to get to hear different perspectives and how people navigate that sort of harmony that you're talking about, it's really important.
Jenny: Yeah, yeah, it takes all of us.
Collette: And work in progress. Thanks everybody for listening, and we'll see you next week.
