Getting feedback can feel like a gut punch—especially when you’ve poured your heart into the work. But what if we could learn to separate ourselves from the critique? What if feedback became a tool for clarity rather than a personal attack?
In this episode of Feedback Fix, we flip the mic and hear from Jamie Cox, founder of Strange Salt and the brand strategist behind Open360. Jamie talks about their early days in art school, where feedback came hard and fast, and how that trial-by-fire helped them build creative resilience. Now, they approach feedback as an essential part of their process—even when it stings.
In this episode, you’ll hear:
Whether you're a designer, founder, or just someone trying to grow, Jamie’s take on feedback will give you a new way to think about your work—and yourself.
Watch the episode on YouTube or listen on Spotify or Apple.
Collette: Hello, everybody. Hello, Miss Jamie, hello,
Jamie: Hello.
Collette: Welcome to feedback fix, where we get real about the messy conversations that move us forward. As a live podcast, we have no scripts except for this, like one little sentence I read at the beginning, no do overs, just unfiltered, honest conversations happening as they unfold. So I am so excited to introduce today's guest, Jamie Cox, founder of Strange Salt and brand strategist extraordinaire. Jamie, before we get started, will you share with us what you're working on right now? Oh yeah,
Jamie: I'm working on I feel like a million things. I mean, we were just talking about that before we went live. There's just, it's a season of life. But I right now, maybe I'll share the thing I'm most excited to be working on strange health is working on a project with a company based here in Nashville that is a product based business. I can't say too much about it, but we did everything from messaging, audience work, naming, we're in visual identity, so that's what I'm working on right now.
Collette: Nice, yeah, you have so for those of you who don't know, Jamie has been responsible for all well, you might not want to take responsibility, and it's not just me. For a Strange Salt has been the only company I've worked with for Open360 with design and messaging and development, and you are just a freaking rock star.
Jamie: Thank you are I'm so are the people that I work with. To be clear, I wouldn't be a rock star if I didn't have those rock stars.
Collette: That's true. They are every part of the experience of working with you has really been amazing and and one of the most amazing things to me is the way that you've handled feedback, in particular feedback for me, and I just am amazed by it. And I've talked to my friends about, you know, I don't know how she does it, because I know you put your heart and soul into your work, and for somebody to give you feedback, it's for me, it's hard. It would be heart wrenching. But before we get into your story, I want to know what is your reaction to the word feedback? What do you think about when you hear that word?
Jamie: Yeah, well, I think my perception or reaction to it has definitely changed over the years, but I I feel like I have a pretty what is the right word? I have a pretty like level set reaction to the word feedback. And I think part of that comes from I went to art school, so critiques were part of, kind of every single day, and they weren't very well informed critiques. They were just kind of, what are you feeling right now? Pour it out. Pour it all out on the person you're talking to. So I feel like I did kind of like develop tough skin in maybe the worst way possible in that situation, but it makes all feedback now feel a little less personal, which feels good.
Collette: So you mean trial by fire, like you just having to suffer through that. And now smaller feedback or less, I don't want to say aggressive, but I'm thinking like less aggressive feedback just feels okay.
Jamie: Yes, well, I feel like it feels more okay too. Because usually when I'm getting feedback, we're both after something better, something bigger, like we're trying to get to a different place, whereas previously, it was more just like, oh, we have to give feedback, even if we don't have any. And I mean, that's like the art school model. So I could go on and on about that. I won't bore you, but
Collette: No, honestly, that's what really to me. I feel paralyzed by the thought of that. It's crazy, because there's one thing to get feedback with work, and typically, work is really prescriptive. It's like, you do this thing in this way, and I'm going to give you feedback about how you did this thing in this way. And this is the thing about you, and this is where I want to, like, pick your brain and understand how you're doing it, because there's something different in my mind about pouring your heart into something that doesn't have structure, like the way that it's supposed to be, and really putting like everything you have into it, and then hearing somebody make even an. Handed comment about it seems like it would be incredibly painful.
Jamie: Yeah. I mean, yes, I think some people don't have the thankfully, don't have the tenacity to just shout their feelings about a thing I published, for example, might silently, like lament about it. But yeah, I mean, it's definitely hard. I think, I think any sort of creative person or anybody in a creative field feels this, where we're all just really sensitive creatures that, like, well, like our work is valuable and heard and seen and understood. So it does feel scary. I think I have a very strange relationship with my work and creative creativity where it doesn't feel like it belongs to me, like I want to feel proud of the things I produce and the things that our team creates, and make sure that they're serving a purpose for our clients, but ultimately it is the clients. I mean, our contracts say that you own the work we do, so I I kind of have to, it's almost like having an out of body experience a little bit of times, where I'm like, this isn't this isn't a it has nothing to do with you. It's just this is what the work needs to do. And so I'm able to kind of remove myself from it. Now, does when I get feedback from clients, does it kind of hurt sometimes, when it feels a little like, out of left field, unexpected or just kind of like, giving feedback for feedback sake, without, like, without any sort of intention or reason behind it, sure that can hurt a little bit. And I go, Oh, just to end but for the most part, I feel like I'm able to just kind of like, this isn't about me, this is about the work itself. And being able to remove myself from that is really helpful.
Collette: I love that. I mean, we talk about that with open 360 about feedback isn't facts, it's just another person's perspective. And I've been guilty of it myself where it's just it's hard to receive, because sometimes it feels i don't know i What's coming is with good intent, but I instantly feel defensive and like, yeah, about it. So I love how you've created the space for it. Of it's not me, and it's not actually even mine. This is something that I'm creating with my client for the benefit of my client, and so the feedback lands somewhere outside of you, yeah,
Jamie: Well, and one thing I always try to do, too with clients, if we're doing, like, an in person review, which we always try to do with any sort of, like, initial concepts that we're presenting, or big ideas that we're like, oh, we we need to have a conversation about this. One thing I always try to do is just tell them, like, you don't need to respond to any of this right now, like, I'm going to word vomit, a bunch of stuff that you're going to see on a screen. You I don't expect you to respond. I want you to process it. Now, if you have responses, great, let's talk through it. And like, gut reactions are always really helpful and insightful and kind of help us tie next steps back to a thing. But anyway, I think giving everybody the space of like, you don't have to respond right now really helps, kind of everybody think through to like, what mindset Am I in to receive the feedback first of all, and then to like, what mindset are they in to give it? I have, I also have, like, a 24 hour email rule. So for example, if you send me feedback, and I'm like, oh, Collette, which I don't do, but if I did
Collette: We know that's happened, Jamie,
Jamie: But if you, if you said that, I'm like, I don't have to respond to this right away. I can take it. I can read it 200 times and take something different from it every single time. So I think giving everybody that time and space to process really helps, helps us all move forward in a better way.
Collette: Yeah, you know what I love about what you're saying is that you're talking about setting boundaries for yourself, like knowing yourself well enough to go, this is what works for me, and this doesn't work for me. So let me help it be safe for both of us by telling you what works for me or doing what works for me, but you're also helping set boundaries for clients, because a lot of people, I've never worked with a design agency or marketing before you and so I don't know what to expect when You send me something. I'm yeah, you know, I don't know what to do with it. So setting really clear expectations about this is for you to review. You don't have to get back to me right now. We're going to have a conversation about it at some point. But that is that's like next level feedback skills. Jamie, yeah.
Jamie: You? I didn't know, yeah. Well, I think it also, I think it helps people take down some of their, like, defense mechanisms a little bit too. When you can say, like, Hey, I'm not expecting you to give feedback right now, I would say nine out of 10 times people do give some sort of feedback, but they're not thinking of it as feedback. They're more so just thinking like, for example, on this project that we've been working on recently that I said I'm excited about, it was all of our team and all of their team on this review call, and we're all across the country, so we're all working virtually, and I just told them, like, you don't have to say anything during this call. And then for the last probably 20 minutes of the conversation, we got to listen to their team, kind of have a conversation and process, because they were just asking each other questions, because it wasn't framed as like, we need feedback right now. We need to know what the revisions are that you want, or we need to know if you're going to commit to all of this right now. So it just, it kind of made everything a little bit more candid, which is something I really try to prioritize in all parts of my work, is just being able to have real conversations with people. And I think that takes us a lot further than kind of these structured like you have to you have to give feedback, you have to say good thing and bad thing, like that doesn't make sense.
Collette: I love that. So part of what you're doing with your clients is really just hosting a meeting and hearing them talk to each other, yeah, so that you can really understand their thought process and what's happening for them. Yeah, wow.
Jamie: That helps other people, like, hear their thoughts too? I think, I think your team experienced this when we maybe you didn't know it, but while we worked with you, it was like hearing other people describe the same thing in different ways, getting kind of different insight and language to describe the thing yourself. I don't think it's anything I did on purpose. It's just kind of the way I thought to do it one day, and it's worked.
Collette: I really love that, because it takes away the needing to know, yeah, and instead, like, sometimes the questions are more important than the answers, sometimes the gaps are the most important thing for you to understand as the person working with them, and so to kind of diffuse the formality of the situation and just say talk amongst yourselves. I'm going to be right here. I'm just eavesdropping creeper over here on Zoom and but that gives you way more insight than if you try to fast track it and get people to just tell you something that's more formal, but you still don't understand the questions and underlying issues behind that.
Jamie: Yeah, it also takes away, I guess, a lever level of filter I think people have, if I was asking for written feedback or and not that that's not helpful. It is, especially in, like, very tactical things, where it's like, put a period here, you know, but it takes away our filter a little bit and gets lets us look at where the feedback is coming from. And if a lot of times people will propose, like, change this to this, and that's not really helpful for us, what would actually be helpful is this isn't working because of this. What's the solution? Like? It helps us get to a different place that maybe neither of us saw possible. But if we're filtering it through, you know, you have to give feedback in these parameters, or you have to write it down, or whatever it just I think we kind of get in our heads a little bit about it.
Collette: Totally agree. I'm telling you, I gave you my experience as you Jamie, I felt so sorry for you on the other end, because no truer job, this is how I work, though it's like, big picture, yes, yes, all good, all good. And then right at the end of the project, I'm like, oh shit, it's my last chance to make changes. And then I'm like, so in the weeds at the very last minute, going, what about this? What about this? I just remember multiple conversations with you where I was like, mocking up my own stuff on a Word document, like, of your time tiny iterations of things that ultimately were so not important and didn't matter. And even as I was doing it, I felt a little out of control, like because it was I didn't know what I wanted. I just knew how I felt about it, or what I thought about it. And as I would reach out to you, I was just like, trying to, I couldn't help but put myself in your shoes and just go, oh Jamie, you know, here comes an email.
Jamie: Yeah. Well, I think the empathy you have in your kind of, all of that helps us to know that, like, like, I know that you don't want to be doing that. Mean, so, so I think both of us being able to see each other as like, okay, obviously, there's something happening here. Let's talk about it. And just kind of having it's, I don't really like the term, like open door policy, because it feels very flimsy. But yes, I mean, I do just try to keep, like, an open door and open email box, an open zoom link, whatever you want to call it, just for people to have a conversation. I mean, I I look for that in my friendships, my relationships, too, where I'm like, I don't really know what I'm feeling right now, but I'm feeling something, and I need to tell somebody, and I think it just helps us get to a new place, or helps us. I mean, I think we all just want to be seen, heard and understood, and I think that helps us get there too, where it feels like the things that are that might feel out of your control, like you do have some control over them, but it's just like realizing the answer you think it is might not be the answer, right? So, yeah, yeah.
Collette: I think what, what we found worked best at the end was just like looming back and forth, sending looms back and forth or something. And you're right, there's just something about getting it out there. And it's like, I don't know what to do with it, but here's what I'm thinking. And I just, we've worked together so much, and every time you are even if you have to initiate the 24 hour rule, which is smart, you come back with total openness. And one of my favorite things to hear on the other end was, I totally get that or that's a valid concern, like, Oh, that feels so good. Because, you know, I do feel like, wherever we land, you've seen me and you've heard me, and we're on the same pay wavelength, you know, yeah, that feels really good. And I think you are exceptionally good at that. Thank you.
Jamie: Yeah. I mean, part of my job, too is to help you and any other clients I work with stay focused on the the thing that we're we're scoped to do and that we need to focus on so and a lot of that is just like when those kind of shiny objects, as I call them, come up, or like the distractions or the concerns that are legitimate come up, like being able to address them in a way that feels like even if we can't get to it right now, I've seen this, yeah, yes, we're going to talk about it, but let's focus on the thing at hand first get through that, and then we can talk about this. And I think that's a really it's like a trademark of a strategist, I guess would be able to keep the guy, like the guardrails up, yes, it is a special skill.
Collette: Yes. So today we are talking also about your most impactful feedback experience, and it could be feedback that you've given feedback that you've received, and I just want to unpack that. And I have, again, I have this idea of how this is going to go, where you're going to tell us this story in the first person, like, okay, it was a cold, dark and stormy night, and this is where I was, and this is what I was feeling, and this is how it all went down. So could you try to fulfill my dramatic dreams and tell us the story?
Jamie: Yeah, I it's it's funny, because I feel like I have so many different feedback experiences, positive and negative, and so it's hard to pick the one that's most impactful, but maybe the one it's it's funny, and it feels planted, but I swear it's not. But like the one that resonates with me the most is one that I had with you. Like I could might be, yes, I could. I mean, I could talk about my bad bosses, sure, I could talk about going to art school, sure. Being a spin instructor, I have all these examples of feedback, but one that like sticks with me is when I have with you. So anyway, I guess Thanks in advance for that. But setting the scene we let's see. I mean, it was like two years ago. It was the spring. I do remember it was the spring because there's a certain energy that I have in the spring that I don't have in the winter or fall. So it was the spring and I was right here in my office. I do remember that because I didn't work at my coworking space yet, and we had it was me and Liz to Lego, who we love. We love you. Liz, we had spoken with your team a few times, and we're we're finally getting to the place where we had, kind of, like the solidified brand strategy, and like all the moving parts and components that were getting us to a point where we could hand it off to. Sarah, our lovely designer who made all the magic happen. But we love them both. But Liz and I were on the call with you, and maybe Stephanie and probably Lacey, I'm guessing, I'm guessing we were all there, and we had gotten to the final little bit of the strategy, and part of our work is to help brands develop their voice and tone. So you guys have guidelines for here's how we say specific words, here's words we use, here's words we don't use, here's how we treat our audience. And it's, I'm trying not to spoil it, but it's a very nuanced process, but when we presented it to y'all, we had gone through all of these different elements of the brand. And again, I think this was like the setting the stage for like, you guys don't have to give us feedback right now, but you just said something along the lines of, we presented these voice and tone things, and you just said something along the lines of, it feels really definite in this way, that it was like we're this or that we talk in this way and not that way. And I had just, we don't know what we don't know. And I just never thought of it that way. I just thought, Oh, this is the clearest way I can show this is by saying, by showing a yes column and a no count column of how our voices, how we kind of say everything. And I don't think, I don't know if you were really expecting anything to come out of that, but it was just kind of that offhanded, like, Oh, it feels really definite comment that stuck with me, and it changed the entire way we treat those exercises now. Um, so, yeah, that's kind of the background. I can share more about how it changed.
Collette: Okay, yes, I would. Let's dig in. Um, so I want to know, like, as you when you heard that feedback, what was the feeling you got that landed with it?
Jamie: I think, I mean, I try to approach all of that, sort of, all of those conversations, out of a place of curiosity. So I think it was mostly like a feeling of intrigue, where it was like, Huh? I had never heard anybody describe it that way. And it wasn't necessarily, I think it was neutral, how you delivered it. It wasn't positive, it wasn't negative, but I just it was the word choice. And I was like, Oh, that feels significant to me in some way. So yeah, I think it just was like intrigue of of, hmm, I'm curious about that. Let's, let's dig in there. And I don't think I, I don't think we have the conversation in real time, necessarily, but I think maybe I asked questions. I can't remember what happened afterward, but I just remember feeling like that that's important. There's gravity to that, whether Collette meant it or not, there's, I feel gravity in it,
Collette: Yeah, well, I remember this conversation I was standing in. I love it, yeah, with my laptop. Leaf was standing behind me like it was just, you know, the work from home situation that we were all in. And, yeah, I remember, I, I would, I literally cried when I unexpectedly, when I saw what you guys had put together. Because, you know, at the time, we knew what we were do. We knew how we were different, but we kind of couldn't yet describe what we were. And you really, you and Liz really worked together to put words to that that really resonated with me. So the all of the messaging really felt on point, and when we got to this place, I loved what you had did, because it is like fast tracking. It's really very visual, like, here's the one side of the spectrum, here's the other side of the spectrum, and this is where your business is. Yeah, I think it's like a cost and a benefit of having been a therapist that I just it's hard to land on one side or another. There's a lot of gray, and our competitors very much would land on one side or another. And part of what I felt, and what you agreed, I think, differentiates us, is that we are flexible. We're not, you know this, or that it's and we're this and that, or, you know, there's just more flexibility in it than a than one word descriptor that makes sense.
Jamie: Yeah, yeah, well, yeah. And I see a lot of not to critique other strategists. But maybe a little I see a lot of that, more black and white thinking and it honestly, since I've been doing it in a different way, I look back on the way I used to do it and think, Wow, that was kind of a cop out. Like saying it usually when you see voice work done, it's like you have two extremes, one is good, one is bad, and so obviously, like, we're going to follow a good one, we're going to be trying to think of a good example. We're going to be authentic and not cheesy. Like, nobody's ever going to want to be like, obviously, everybody's going to want to fall into the authentic side, yeah, easy side. So it just feels like a little too on the nose and not, not important, not helpful, as y'all navigate kind of the roller coaster of not just running a business, but marketing your business, and like, having that kind of black and white thinking is not going to help. So the way we've done it now, and this is not anything new, I've seen a lot of other people do this, is just like, really tear apart this nuance between words, where we, you know, we see this is just an example, but we see open 360 as being empowering. So what does that mean like? And then digging into, what does the extreme version of that mean, that might be kind of more of that actually, Sarah calls them brand shadows, which I love, where it feels it might be like a little off putting for some people, and maybe that's on purpose, yeah, versus like, where do we fall? Where it feels really comfortable and it feels natural, it feels authentic. So anyway, we do this whole scale thing now, where we talk about, yes, there's still like, extremes on either side, but they're more nuanced in that. And really just finding the plate the balance of we're more in this category, but we're still touching this one over here, and then kind of giving examples of the different versions of that so and just to kind of again, like, embrace the embrace the gray areas.
Collette: Yeah, I love that. So I'm imagining like, you have the word empowering, and you have like, the very lowest button on the empowering scale. It's like, you know, I'll let you go to the bathroom when you want to at work. That's empowering. And, yeah, okay, that's like, as small as you can possibly get. The large, the higher end of the scale, could really look like, I think what a lot of companies are afraid of, which is you guys are just going to do whatever you want. Like, yes, yeah, run the show. You're not being managed. You are like, you know, have power. You know, much power. And so I love that idea of a brand shadow, because inevitably, you will have customers who try to use it or who do use it on the different ends of the spectrum. So really taking a close look at that, that's awesome, Jamie.
Jamie: Yeah. Well, in another example that I see a lot is actually, we talked about this earlier, like, empathetic. I see that used a lot in brand language. You know, we all want to put ourselves in our customers shoes, all of that, but there's an extreme version of that I see a lot of brands take on sometimes too, because they think they're being empathetic, but really they're just being like, it's, it's like, coddling, I would say, is like, the the shadow there, that we're like, okay, we're not going so far that we're like, oh, customer, you need help checking out in your cart. Just send us an email. Like, no, you have to, you have to, again, balance that empowering side. And so that's kind of where the nuance comes into play where it's, you know, how are we empathetic? We're not coddling, but we're letting people like we're leading with understanding, for example, or curiosity, however that looks. So there's all sorts of different ways that that takes shape, and it really just, it boils down to, again, those conversations and how we how we hear people talking about their business and the way that they are shaping their products. So, yeah.
Collette: So you have the there's this space between hearing the feedback with curiosity and going like, Oh, there. There is something there to actually now having a new process that you use that improves your process for customers. So how did that happen?
Jamie: So I will say so strange. Salt is built very uniquely. We are all building our independent businesses, and then we come together to work on bigger projects. When it makes sense, we build. Independent businesses when we're not working together. So we are all in that kind of interim between projects, learning, growing, trying new things, trying new processes, trying new frameworks, all of those things. And then when we come together, we're sharing like, Hey, this is actually how I've been doing this since the last time we talked. How can this work together. So I would say our process is a little my the I actually just hired a systems person to help me kind of get some stuff in order, and she would roll her eyes at me, but our processes are a little intentionally bad.
Collette: Okay, I can't wait to hear this intentionally bad,
Jamie: Just because we try to make space for these changes, like I think the whole reason when I started my business and when I started strange salt, I mean, a lot of it's built on the fact that, not like there's no one size fits all, version of this work. So we really have to look at it from every angle and say, what's going to work for this client, and what's going to be the most impactful for them? I'm not going to sell somebody a bunch of stuff they don't need, and because it feels that's when it feels terrible, is it when it just sits in a trash can? So I think how we changed the process. I mean, every time I do it, I feel like I change it a little bit, and hopefully it's for the better. And I'm just trying to keep a record of how did I do it last time, going back and trying, I actually just reviewed y'all strategy document a few weeks ago because I was just looking at like, how did I do it two years ago? And so I don't know, I learned something from past Jamie every time I do it. But anyway, so I don't really have a good answer of how we implement the process, other than just having conversations about what's worked, what doesn't we do. Do a debrief after every project that has been really, really helpful. I actually learned this from my friends at another agency called ox, based out of Chicago, but they do a thing called Four simple lists. I'm not sure if it's their practice or if it's, you know, a tool a lot of people have done. But basically, every time strangell Does a project, project now, all of the members that worked on it come together at the end, and we look at what, man, now I'm gonna forget what they are. It's like, what went good, what was missing, what was confused, and what was wrong. And so we just have a conversation about that. And usually, unfortunately, the same things are always in the wrong column. But we're, you know, we're trying, we're trying to get it better. We've we're good at cleaning up the confused, and we're good at cleaning up the missing, the wrong is always hard because of because the process is always changing. But yeah, that's been a helpful sort of thing, just for us to regroup and say what's working, what doesn't, what doesn't. It lets us rethink our own personal strategies and work in this and it also helps us individually, think about was this project a good fit for me, which I'm all about, that like making sure all of our work aligns with the stuff we want to do and the work we want to put out in the world.
Collette: How do you make sure that what have you learned about good fit and what that looks like for you,
Jamie: I'm still learning, because I think, I think you have to have the bad fit to know what's going to be good. I mean, good, yes, exactly. So I think I actually created this thing for all of our strange law members, and this was more so for me. But I was like, Oh, I bet other people would find this helpful. I call it the client vibes checker, and it stands for something to know. I cannot remember what it was, but it's but essentially, I rank like when I meet a new prospect, I go through and I rank on these different categories. So I man, I wish I could remember what all they are. But one is, I know values. Well, I was, yes, I think it's values, investment, okay, what would be be? I don't remember.
Collette: Well, I can think of a few things.
Jamie: I have this grading rubric, and I, I'm sorry I can't think of it right now, but and I rank them based on this, and it's kind of like a gut check to be like, is this actually going to work? And I know things that I do look at a lot, are, oh, B budget. Oh, there we go. Got it? That's one that is usually a deal breaker. But it's, it's a lot of it's like, willingness to do something in a way that they might not be thinking. So for example, if I get on a call with a client and they're like, I need this and I need it this way, that's an automatic no for me. Okay, because I'm like, you already have this kind of tunnel that. Question of this is how this thing has to be done, which means you're not really open to the feedback, the process, the kind of gray areas that we've been talking about that actually make this work impactful. And so a lot of it is that, and just kind of like the willingness to try something new. I think I learned a lot in the 30 minutes that I talked to somebody in kind of like our discovery call, I ask a lot of questions in that, and I have some people who brush those questions off as, oh, that's not what I'm trying to do, or oh, that doesn't feel important to the project. And I would strongly disagree, and again, those are the people that I'm usually like, No, this isn't going to work. And I'm more than happy to connect you with somebody else or port you in a different direction. I'm more than happy to say, No, I don't think your investment is going to be worthwhile here, but it's definitely, it's definitely trial and error there. I mean, I've said yes to some projects that oof, I don't necessarily regret them, but I wish they went a different way and wouldn't do them again. They informed, like, Oh, this is not it. And they also inform, I mean, I keep in touch with all of all of our clients, all of my individual clients as well, and those clients are the clients that I'm not necessarily like keeping top of mind and trying to you work with. So I try to base everything on like we've worked together on this project. It's been great. You got what you wanted. We don't have to continue.
Collette: Yeah, good. It's your that you were together for a reason or a season.
Jamie: Yes, a reason or a season,
Collette: One of the themes that just continues to come up, and even in this, is that boundaries piece, Jamie and I, as a former therapist, I know that that is one of the hardest things for people, number one, to know what your boundaries are. We all know when they've been violated because her reaction, but to know what they are on the front end and be proactive about it feels incredibly hard, and you do this so well. I mean, you really talk.
Jamie: I don't know if my therapist would agree.
Collette: Who knows? To your therapist shout out at the end of this, you know? I mean, honestly, I swear to you, Jamie, it's you. You're you're not just out there saying I need to set boundaries. People aren't. You're just doing it, and that's the kind of boundaries. People don't have to respect your boundaries. They're not the ones responsible for them. You are, and you are such a beautiful example of not being the victim of your own. I don't know what the word is, but not taking care of yourself. You know that you are really intentional about it, and that's a really healthy thing. It is.
Jamie: Thanks. Yes. I don't know if my therapist would agree with that, but I think, yeah, I think a lot of that comes from, I don't know. Maybe it's because I'm so extroverted in the way that I am, but I just recognize I have a lot of energy. Again, my therapist is always reminding me, like that doesn't mean you have to give it to everybody. And so, yeah, I really try to keep that top of mind and all of the things. And I think that's like the core of my boundaries is, like, I don't have to give have to give my energy to this. I am very and I have no idea where this comes from, but I'm very good at just moving on, yeah, in maybe the like, maybe in a bad way sometimes too. I'm not saying it's like a superpower, but I am able to just kind of like, Hmm, that didn't go the way I thought it would, or that didn't feel great next, you know, maybe I move on a little too quickly sometimes, but it does just, yeah, I think, I think it's, it's almost like self preservation in some ways.
Collette: It is, it is self preservation, but it also makes you safe. I was doing a workshop last week, and we were talking about safety, emotional safety, and conversations, and I was making the point that people with loose boundaries are not safe because they won't set boundaries with you that they actually have. You will inevitably cross them. They will become resentful, but if they didn't feel comfortable setting them in the first place, they're probably not comfortable telling you that you've crossed them. And it becomes people who don't set boundaries for themselves and make that clear and take care of themselves in that way are just typically not safe people to have related. Relationships with and just like the other side is true, people with really rigid boundaries who won't flex for other people are also not safe because, you know, you don't get to participate in that relationship.
Jamie: Yeah, it feels, yeah, it's hard. I feel like I've worked on or I've like, I guess I've been in in different areas of my life, I feel like I've fallen in both ends of those spectrums. Actually, it's funny you say, like, impactful feedback and boundaries. I posted something last at the end of last year on LinkedIn about I'm like, how do people manage calendars? How do you have a specific day for meetings. What does it mean with other people have a different day for meetings? This is something I'm constantly toiling with. And one of my former clients, it just again, it's like she wasn't giving me feedback. She just kind of off handed. Wrote this thing, and it was basically like, if you have too rigid of boundaries, you're going to break about and it was talking about, like, this calendar boundary. And right now, I should have listened to her. Right now I am in this place of, I tried to set these boundaries on my calendar. And now I'm like, looking at every Tuesday, and I'm like, I've got 40 meetings tomorrow, how I'm going to do it. So anyway, it's like, I think you do have to, kind of like push the own, your own limits of your boundaries, yeah, to figure that out. But I also try to make space in the feedback realm. I, I try to make space for people to tell me, No, you know, in a way that's safe to where I I don't know. It's, it's, it's hard, it's a it's a balance, definitely being a woman, because it's easy to be like, no worries, if not like, totally. But I do try to just, even at the end of conversations, if we're working on a project, in strange thought, where I'm emailing somebody just saying, like, Hey, how are you feeling and or, How does this feel, especially when I'm doing things like setting timelines, if you don't tell me that you're not going to be able to get it done in the you know, three weeks that I've said, I'm not going to know, and we're both going to be stressed and disappointed in the end. So I try to make as much space for your boundaries as well as mine and so and just try to come to a compromise. I mean, I think that's basically being in a relationship with anybody is just constantly finding that space. So, yeah, it's a beautiful thing. We're trying.
Collette: I commend your therapist, so I'd love to hear a little bit be about I know you left corporate, corporate, corporate environment, and what was happening there that you what's my question? What was happening there, that you wanted to do differently for yourself, that you wanted different for you.
Jamie: I mean, I think this, I can interpret that in a lot of different ways. I mean, I think on a the easiest thing for me to say is that I needed more flexibility in my life. And I mean, it was also the middle of the pandemic, or what I thought was the middle of the pandemic, naively, it was 2020, it was the beginning. But I think I was basically like, I have no boundaries. That was part of it was because it was like, I'm working in this room and then I'm spending all day in this room and I'm never leaving. So, you know, that's kind of the easy answer, is I needed more. I need more Jamie in my life. And it was not, I did not have it. So I was saying, you know, on the surface, it's like I needed more Jamie. I need to know who Jamie was. Outside of work, I had a very unhealthy work relationship, and that's on me. Like I'm not putting pointing fingers at anybody else, but, but I think the kind of core of I had known I wanted to leave, even before the pandemic and everything happened, I had known that I eventually wanted to work for myself in some capacity. I didn't really know what it looked like, and I didn't really know what the timeline was, but I think the big driver of that was just a misalignment of expectations. And this is something I saw in every, every role I've had. And not to say, you know, I had a 40 year career or anything, but I mean, I think I probably had four or five different jobs at the time, and anytime there was tension, it with an like a team member, an employee, a boss, a client. It was it always boiled down to expectations. Um, somebody said that they were going to do the thing. They thought it meant this thing. The other person thought it meant this thing. It didn't get done. Or the client thought the scope of work was this and it was this, and now. Are mad that we are asking for more money. So I think really, what I'm trying to do in everything is be crystal clear, super transparent about what I will and won't do what our team does and doesn't do it strange salt and also, I mean, who I will and won't work with. That's something I mean, I talk about that a lot, about living your values. And, you know, I have green hair for a reason. It's it's meant, it's meant to attract the right people and repel the wrong ones. And that's kind of how I try to build my business, and also encourage anybody I'm working with to build theirs, to find that kind of space of from the get go, Who are you for? Who aren't you for? And that's that, in and of itself, is like setting a level of expectation.
Collette: You taught me that because we know when I came on board, I'm like, No, I want everybody to like me. I want everybody to use us. And you're like, you know, if you're not repelling some people, you're not attracting the right people.
Jamie: Yes, yeah, it's hard. And it's, it's, it is really liberating too to like, Oh, I'm not for everybody. I don't have I was actually just writing a little article about control and branding. Like, we want to think we have control over all of these things, but we really don't. I mean, all we can control is what we're putting out there, but how other people perceive us. You said this earlier, that's on them. And so once you kind of realize you don't have any control, the world becomes a little bit more of your oyster.
Collette: I refuse to accept it
Jamie: Oh I know, I know I'm writing it. I'm writing it for myself as much as I'm ready for everybody else. All the things I publish, all the content I produce, is usually a reminder that I need Yeah, just happens that my audience needs it too.
Collette: That is so good. I do really enjoy your newsletters and all the stuff that you're creating. So let's talk about who needs to reach out to you, yeah. And how do they do that? Mm, hmm, yeah.
Jamie: So I would say, so there's two parts of my business, but I will, I'll put you in the right place if you reach out to me. So don't worry. But I would say, any business owner who's looking to show up in a more meaningful way and make their marketing count more. I think a lot of us are focused on the thing, like, whether that's Oh, I want to I want to get on Instagram, I want to launch a podcast, I want to do whatever I want to do. I want to make a one pager. We're all we're all focused on the the thing at the end, but we're missing all the steps in the middle that actually helped that thing be impactful. So if you want that thing to be more impactful, I'm your gal, and we've got a team at strange salt who can help. And if I'm not your person, I probably know somebody who is, so you can learn more about strange salt. Strange salt.com we're a brand agency for businesses who want to do things differently, that's challenging the status quo, challenging systems, antiquated processes that don't serve actual people. So yeah, if you that sounds like you, I'd love to meet you.
Collette: Yeah, you're a rebel, yes, disruptors, and you are also just a freaking awesome person. So I would say we met two years ago, but I think we've been friends for a year. You know, great friends for a year, and I've met so many people through you who are just kind authentic, love it. I mean, the people in your circle are just as lovely as you. So
Jamie: I try to keep good company. Like I said, I only have so much energy. I have a lot of it's only it's limited,
Collette: That's right. I recommend you to everybody that I come across who's looking for any sort of design, strategy, marketing, and in particular, small businesses, I think you are just so well equipped to take people from nothing. You know, I have a small business, and I have a little website. I don't know what else I need to really this beautiful, built out brand that's a representation of who they are and what they do. You rock. You do so funny.
Jamie: I always feel like everybody else can describe it better than I can, which maybe is metaphor for my work. I if you have a hard time describing stuff, I'm good at describing your stuff.
Collette: You're a brand strategist. Jamie, that is, that's so funny, but you do a beautiful job of it, because just look at your website. I've sent it to a couple of people recently, and they've just been very complimentary just about your website. I'm like, Just wait till you meet her. Okay, so to close us out, what is i. I want your nugget of wisdom. So what's one piece of advice that you will give people from your hard earned experience about how to show up to receive feedback?
Jamie: I think, ooh, I think knowing when, when you are in a place to receive feedback and when you aren't is really, really important. I had, actually, I'm in a community that we do like a feedback session together every month, and I wasn't able to attend, and the moderator, like, emailed me and was like, Hey, if you want to record a video and send and I can show it to the group and we'll give you feedback. That's great. And I said, you know, I'm I'm feeling very sensitive right now, and I'm not in a place to do that. And that that, like, gave me space to think, what is the actual thing I need. And the next month, I was able to come and show up and ask for feedback and receive it in a way that felt like, oh, I can do this. So anyway, I think knowing, knowing when you're ready to receive feedback is important, and then having kind of the courage to say, can we talk about this at a different time, is really, really important.
Collette: Yeah, I love that I kind of have a rule for myself. You and I have encountered this. Because when I speak, you know, up on a stage, or when I'm speaking to a group, I only celebrate that day. Yes, I do not take anything but absolute praise the day, because it's taken everything I have to get up there, and I give everything I have up there, and that is to be celebrated. I want to celebrate that, and I don't want to dilute it and mix it up with more other stuff that I can do better later. Okay, there's a time for that, but it's not the day of for me. And so, yeah, that's a hard
Jamie: I learned that from you. Yeah, we had that conversation, and I was like, Man, I love that. And it also, like, gave me the words to say, Oh yeah. That's why some of the feedback I've gotten has felt terrible, is because I was in this hot, like, riding this high, and then somebody was like, by the way, oh my gosh, just crash and burn.
Collette: Yeah, even if they because they're trying to be helpful, right? So they're pointing out, like, the one thing that could possibly be pointed out before they forget and right away, yeah? But yeah, there's nothing more deflating. I've just done something that's really hard for you, and then have somebody tell you how you could have done it a little bit better.
Jamie: And it's like, I already know that, yes, like, I know I could have done better, but Right, I did it, and that's creating this, right?
Collette: Yes, yes. This celebrating, yeah, Jamie, I love you. I'm so grateful to you for coming here and sharing your thoughts and experience. I didn't know you were such a boundary badass until these conversations and then the theme clearly emerged. So that's really cool. That's really neat.
Jamie: And I'll carry that torch with me.
Collette: That's right, badge, boundary badass. Thank you so much, and thank you all who are listening. Yes.
Jamie: Thank you everybody.
