Feedback isn't always about what's wrong. It can also help you discover why things feel off.
In this episode of Feedback Fix, Collette Revere sits down with Cari Reagan, Director of Organizational and People Development, to unpack a moment that changed how Cari sees trust, safety, and feedback forever. What started as a new job and a big leap forward turned into a season of self-doubt and struggle—until a friend said, “You don’t feel safe.” That single piece of feedback cracked something open. Cari began to realize that psychological safety isn’t a luxury—it’s the foundation of trust, belonging, and performance.
In this episode, you’ll hear:
If you’ve ever felt like you were “flailing” in a new role, questioned your worth when praise was missing, or wrestled with feedback even when you asked for it—this conversation is for you.
Watch the episode on YouTube or listen on Spotify or Apple.
Collette: Welcome to feedback fix where we get real about the messy conversations that move us forward. We are a live podcast, which means no scripts, no do overs, just unfiltered, honest conversations happening as they unfold. I'm Collette Revere, and today I'm sitting down with Cari Reagan, Director of Organizational and People Development, and someone who's helped people and organizations grow through honest, meaningful conversations. Welcome Cari!
Cari: Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.
Collette: Thank you. Yeah, I'm so glad we're having this conversation. So let's just start by talking about what you're working on right now.
Cari: Yeah, absolutely. So I have been in the L&D, OD, training facilitation space, basically my whole career. And I work for a health care company in Nashville, and right now what I'm working on is leader development. I play a big role in our leadership development programs within the company, and so we have two major programs that we offer every year. And we actually just wrapped up our we have an interview process, a nomination process. There's a they have to write an essay about why they want to be considered for the program. And this was probably from my experience with the company. This was the highest nomination year that we had. We had almost 50 nominees, and we really only have about 30 spots, and so we just finished and finalized the second class within the last week. So now it's getting, you know, BIOS together and figuring out our curriculum. We try to look at like the year before every time and see like, what's the feedback, what worked, what didn't. So I am in the throes of getting both of those programs off the ground, and I'm excited about it.
Collette: Congratulations. Thank you. Huge to have such a kind of surplus of people who are applying for that program. So how many years has that program been in effect.
Cari: Yeah. So one of the programs has been in around, like 15 years, and it's really, you know, changed and evolved, and then the other one has been around for probably about six years. Each of them are 12 months. We've kind of changed the timing of them. Sometimes at one point they were 18 months, but you got to find that sweet spot. And so we figured that kind of a year is really the people don't lose interest, you know, they can, they can commit to that. And so, yeah, so it's really evolved. And so for me, being still relatively new to the company, this is my third iteration of what it's the third iteration of both courses. So, but this is as every course, every cohort we've had, I've kind of played a bigger role as I've gotten more comfortable with it and stuff, and so me and my direct boss are kind of the two leadership development gurus, awesome.
Collette: So talking about feedback, I'm thinking about these 20 people who applied for this leadership program and filled out an application, my guess is, did some additional work for that, and you're having to let those people know that they didn't make it in this year. So what was that experience like?
Cari: Yeah, that's always the challenge. But you know, one of the things that we did because we knew based on the number of nominees and based on the number of slots that we weren't going to have a space for everybody. And so one of the things that we did in the interview process is we talked about that, and not only that, so it's one of those things that if you're nominated, you can't have, you know, like you can't be on PIP or anything like that. Like you've got to be in really good standing and seen from your leadership as someone who can evolve and grow into a new role. So we knew that we were getting kind of the, you know, high caliber folks anyway. And so one of the things that we are doing is we are going to pilot a another Leadership Development Program later this year. And if the folks that did not make the roster this time want to participate, that was kind of their go, you know, what's the word I'm looking for, like, their alternative price or whatever. But because we knew that they still, obviously, they applied for the program, we know that they want development that is such a huge thing right now. And so we wanted to, we didn't want to just say, Okay, thanks, bye, sorry you didn't make it. So we were really thoughtful in that, and communicated that in the interview process, and then actually followed up with every single person individually. So you know what? You weren't selected. If you know, we recapped, hey, there were a lot of people that were nominated, and. And if you're interested, please let us know if you'd like to participate in this program. And for the most part, I would say, of those 20 folks who were not selected, I would say probably 17 got back to us, but there were still a couple of people that were like, No, I don't know yet. So, you know, let it settle. Yep. Yeah, absolutely.
Collette: I love that Cari, because I think one of the most important, from my perspective, one of the most important qualities of a leader is somebody who actually wants to be a leader, which should seem obvious, but unfortunately, it's our way to promote people and give them more. You know, career growth, or whatever is to make them leaders. And not everybody knows what that looks like, or even wants to do that, necessarily.
Cari: We have that conversation all the time. Yeah, great individual contributor. Of course, you're going to be a great leader, and then we don't develop. And I'm not saying this specifically in the role that I'm in now, but just in the L and D space. You know, we think that they're going to make a great leader, but yet we don't do anything to develop them, and it's really hard when you don't have experience. Being a leader is so different. And so when we don't develop them, it doesn't set them up for success,
Collette: No. And you know, I would argue I'm trying to think of the leaders that I know, and I think that everyone would say I really do, the good leaders that I know would say I'm still trying to figure out what I'm doing. It doesn't matter how high up, how new you are how long you've been doing it. It's constantly evolving, and the relationships in the workplace are so what is it that you teach people in the leadership development program.
Cari: We have everything from and it's interesting, because they actually will do towards the end of the program, they'll do a 360 feedback, yeah, so they we do that as well. It's very homegrown, though, so it's only aligned with our internal core values and leadership competencies. Okay, it's not just, you know, it's not generic or whatever so, but change management, conflict management, we try to bring in a lot of our executive team to come in and talk about, you know, what's going on in healthcare, what are the challenges, risk management, legal, things like that. So they get really an opportunity for exposure to that side of the house that maybe they wouldn't necessarily. They might be in a hospital and, you know, West Virginia or something. And now they're getting to speak to and be on a call with or in person with our company, COO. And so that's really the thing that sets these programs aside. That's what the takeaway is. You know, people love the fact that they get to be in front of leadership that they may have not gotten necessarily a chance to meet. And then also, and you know this as well as anybody, it's the camaraderie and the networking. It's the fact that I now have a person in West Virginia that I can pick up the phone at any time, because we've got this rapport and relationship. And those are the two main takeaways. It's, it's so funny, the content doesn't even matter. I mean, it does, but it's like, those are the two main takeaways. It's the relationships that they built, the experiences that they got to have, and the exposure to upper management, upper leadership that they may not have had the opportunity for.
Collette: Yeah, that makes so much sense. So then, where does feedback fit into this program? And how do you is that part of the conflict management? Or how do you teach people how to do that? And how do they get feedback from let's say this thought of giving a presentation for the first time to a CEO or a COO, somebody I'm not used to being in front of seems incredibly intimidating. So how does that work?
Cari: Absolutely. So that is actually a part of it, that the end of both of these programs, they do a 20 minute-ish presentation in front of an executive panel. So my boss and I, we do all we can to help them prepare. And so that's actually one of the things, like, they have to go through their presentation for she and I, and then we offer you know feedback. And then they can also get you know feedback from each other, but there's also opportunities. So one of the programs, they work with a mentor, so that is definite back and forth feedback. We also partner with an external executive coach, and every single person in the program gets to work with him as well. So lot of feedback going on there. One of the actual sessions that we do is on feedback and coaching specifically, we look at like the GROW Model when it comes to coaching, but I feel like there is feedback throughout. And even, you know, when we get together, it's like, what's on your mind? What feedback do you because we're always looking to for feedback. Like, did last session work? Did we need to change something? So we do kind. Of that mid level, I'm sorry, not mid level, but mid program survey to say, Hey, how's it working? What are you are you getting stuff out of this? And then we also do an end of program so I feel like it's kind of a two way conversation at all times, because we want to make sure that, you know, this is a big investment for them, it's a big time commitment for them. And so we want to make sure that we're delivering a product, that they're getting something out of and that it's, you know, and then also that, that we're listening to what they have to say as well.
Collette: Yeah, so what's the Grow coaching model? I don't, I haven't heard of that before. Oh, I had to ask you.
Cari: I'm not going to remember the acronym, but you can literally, there's a cute little video short on, and I can't just, I would have written it down had I thought about it. Oh, it's so appropriate. Really, so easy. It's similar to, like, you know, the star model state, you know, I mean, it's along those lines, but it's, it's very, it's very beneficial.
Collette: Okay, cool. I will look it up. And it reminds me of is it the branch and the tree? Do you know what I'm talking about when we talk about delegating? I think this is a model from fierce conversations. Where is it a branch issue or a tree issue? And if it's a tree issue, then it requires you to check in with the group, because it's kind of we're all attached, and we're all moving in this direction, and if it's a branch issue, then you don't have to check in with me or get permission to do this. You can kind of move forward. Yeah, with it. So that's more of a delegating model. I Yeah, yeah, definitely. Um, okay, so I want to hear because I don't know this story. I want to hear about your most powerful feedback experience. And you know, before you start, you know I want you to take us back there like I want you to go back there, and I want you to just take us there with you about where you are, what you're thinking, what you're feeling, and how it's landing as you go.
Cari: Yeah, absolutely. So this would have been, and I'm going to be very generic to protect the guilty, okay, and you know, okay, so this was about, was around 2014 okay? And I had just started a new job. I had left a job that I had been at for since 2008 and was really looking for growth, opportunities development. I was an individual contributor, and really wanted to be in leadership, and so I took this position, and I had been there for a couple of months, and I was flailing. I mean, I was struggling so bad. And so I reached out to a friend, and I said I was telling her the story, and I was going on and on and on and on. And she said, can I give you some feedback? And I was like, Yes. Like, I'm dying here. And she said, You don't, you don't feel safe. And I was like, in my head. You know how you have those like, you think 10,000 thoughts in a second. I'm thinking, I'm not afraid she's gonna like, the person's gonna punch me or something like, I couldn't figure out where she was going with it, and I was like, say more. And she said, one of the baseline behaviors of trust is safety. And she said, you don't feel safe with this person, therefore you don't trust this person. And so she started to ask me a sequence of questions. She said, You know, when you tell this person something that's going on, do you trust that it's going to leave that office? And I was like, she probably, you know, shouts it from the rooftop, like I don't feel like anything is in confidence. And she was like, so then she just kind of went into more and more detail about me not trusting this person. It was so like, I can still feel it in my body, the way that I felt that day, because it was such a, you know, it's not your typical, like, here's a way that you can improve. But it was such a piece of feedback and a concept that I had never experienced. I had never put two and two together of what those things meant. Yeah. And so for me, the way that it showed up was, I mean, honestly, it was a spiral to an extent, because I was like, just almost kind of looking back at things that I had been a part of, and it's like, oh, I didn't trust that person. Oh, I didn't. And it was really kind of the first time, too, that I had heard the term safety, that kind of psychological safety I had never really I knew what it was, I knew what the feeling was, but I never had words for it. So she and I continued on the conversation, and and I did a ton of research on trust and safety and all of those things. And one of the things that she asked me that was kind of a result of the conversation. She said, Do you think that this person is open to feedback? And I was like, Absolutely not. Absolutely not. And I said, so. And so she was like, Okay. Okay, well, then, you know, you got one or two ways to go, either, you know, give that person feedback, or you've got to deal with it. And you know, for me, it all, it all worked out the way it was supposed to. That person ended up leaving the company. I left a short time after, and went back to where I had come from, actually, but it was so for me, it was, it was the first time in my life that I'd ever had the vocabulary for that to understand what trust truly is. And what's interesting about that is this person broke that trust on day one, literally on day one, I went home for my very first day on that job sobbing, okay. Under mine, I was just like, I have made the worst I've made the worst mistake. Blah, blah, blah. And the person on the other line, I mean, she was so kind, and she was like, you know, change is hard. Just, you know, give it some time or whatever. But when I backtrack to that very first day, that's exactly what happened. She broke my trust the very first day, and never, you know, the thing about it was like, she never made the effort to gain it back. And if she did, it was, like it was so shattered that, you know, it was almost irreparable at that point. Yeah, yeah. So that's that, like I said, it's not just a typical, hey, you should do this better, or, Hey, you didn't do this well. But that, to me was, I mean, it was just, it was like I said it was life altering, because I never had those words before.
Collette: Yeah, I feel this for you, Cari, as you're talking about it, I really have this reaction. It's almost like going from being unseen and not taken care of, I want to say, abandoned. Maybe that feels extreme to then being seen like almost the feedback that you got is just somebody seeing you, yes, in a way that you didn't even see you. Yeah.
Cari: It gave me the language Yeah, to then describe the feelings that I was having, because, for me, you know, I was taking everything so personal. I was just like, oh my gosh, I can't, I can't I don't feel like I'm fitting in. I can't all the things that I can't do. And it's just like you don't even have the baseline of safety. How are you, how are you ever able to excel or to fit in, or to do any of the things in a new role at a new company after you've been, you know, secure at a company prior, it's like, you don't even feel safe to walk through the door. And so just to have those and exactly to your point, like, ah, that aha moment was like, Oh my gosh, that's it.
Collette: Yeah, so how long was it before you left after that conversation.
Cari: The person that the conversation was about left the company A short time later. I would say she and I did not work together for very long, and then I was only there for a little over a year.
Collette: Okay, so what I what happened on the first day?
Cari: Oh, okay, yeah, I'm happy to tell you. So during the interview process, we were talking about kind of what my first day would look like, and I showed up. And so what it was is they were doing a pilot, and what I was supposed to do, because I'd never been a part of this particular type of pilot, I was supposed to just be an observer. I was just going to be in the audience and observe and kind of see how it worked, because I would soon be training on that and teaching, you know, kind of the facilitators, how to do that well and so forth. Well, when I got there, she was like, Oh, you're actually going to participate in the class today. You're going to be because it was sales training. She's like, you're actually going to be a sales associate in this I was just like, and you know me pretty well, like, I mean, that was, that was all she wrote. I was just like, and the thing about it was, is the way that it was relayed to me was we thought it would be funny if we did this.
Collette: Yeah, that is your worst...
Cari: My worst nightmare, yep. So literally, on center stage. Now we're doing role plays, and I'm having to be a part of this.
Collette: So for the listening audience, you hear Cari talk about flailing. So let me just assure you that Cari's version of flailing is not other people's versions. Cari is a hard, conscientious, thoughtful worker, and tell me if I'm misspeaking anywhere here, Cari, but you want to be prepared. You need to be prepared. Yeah, and so for you to show up and have somebody really what felt like to you, disregard you and what you need was shattering for you,
Cari: Absolutely, absolutely, you know you and I taught. About the Enneagram all the time, and I'm a three, so I'm the achiever right? That's right, but the way that it manifests for me, so there's, there's your internal struggle, and then you're, there's the external way that it shows up. So externally, you're not going to probably know that I'm rattled, yeah, internally, on the inside, I am absolutely coming unglued, because what it means to be the way that I, that I process things like that, from, from the Enneagram speak, is I have a huge fear of failure, yeah, even though I don't have a long list of failures, no. And I believe, again, this is my irrational brain. I believe that people, loved ones, whatever, the world only accepts me for the things that I do and who I am, like, like, because of the job that I have, or the title that I have, or the car that, you know, all of those things it's like in my irrational brain, I think, oh, gosh, if I didn't have this, you know, if I weren't on Collette podcast, you wouldn't be my friend. I mean, those are the irrational thoughts that that drive that, and it's that way with feedback for me too. Externally, I tell people all the time, I'm like, Oh my gosh, I'm open to feedback. Internally, I'm dying girl. Internally, I'm going down a spiral of, oh my gosh, I didn't do well, and now I'm failing and I'm gonna lose. But I mean, it's Yeah, panic.
Collette: You're in really good company with that. You brave, brave woman for saying it out loud. Because so that's kind of how all of us, I don't want to say all of us. Maybe there's some real good, great exceptions out there, but for most of us, we're supposed to be okay with feedback in order to be a good professional. And so out of everybody, you're not going to break that mold. You're going to be like, yeah, oh yeah, give me feedback. I'm great. But of course, you shrivel because you're trying so hard to keep it together and to achieve and to perform, and so it's got to be extra hard for you.
Cari: I will say one of the things that you've taught me in just thinking about like, because I try to ask for feedback, like, if I've presented or facilitated or something, but if I'm coming off of a high, meaning, it was a great session. I don't want feedback, no, and I have that has been a kind of a boundary that I have put up now. It's like, tomorrow, we can talk about it. But right now I feel so great. I don't want to know this nitpicky look, you know, nitpicky thing that I forgot to cover, or whatever. Yeah, that's been a huge shift for me, because it's like I can go home and process it and, you know, be okay with it or whatever, and just bask in the glow of how great it feels. Mm, hmm, we can talk about the other side of it tomorrow.
Collette: Yes, I love that Cari setting healthy boundaries for you. Absolutely.
Cari: Absolutely. Can I tell you a quick story? Yes, so this just happened, or it would have been my feedback story. Okay, literally, just happened about two weeks ago, and I haven't processed it enough, so that's why I I'm just going to tell you the story. I can't really, I don't know how to react to it. Yeah, I mentioned a couple of times, you know, the fear of failure. So one of the things that I facilitate in my job is a behavior assessment. We talk all about it. And I was at an off site leadership development, off site team, team development, and I get to the part where I'm talking about fear of failure, and I say that, you know, I have my little stick. I was like, Oh my gosh. I have such a, you know, high fear of failure. You know, I don't know why I don't have this big, long list of failures. Blah, blah. This gentleman raises his hand, and he said, Can I ask you a question? And I was like, yeah. And he said, Do you ever wonder what you're missing out on because you're scared to fail? Oh, huh. I was just, and I just, I was just like, that's two weeks ago, and I'm still processing. I'm processing my whole life. Like, did, ah, you know,
Collette: Did you say? What did you say?
Cari: I honestly, I don't even remember. Like, I feel like I blacked out. So taking a back bite. Nobody's ever asked. I've taught that class 1000 times.
Collette: Nobody's ever said that. That is a fantastic question. Yeah,
Cari: Talk about something back on the spot,
Collette: Right? I wonder that. I wonder that so you and I are so alike in terms of our values about things, and we're so different in this way, in how we function, like I go through the world, and I just want to be myself, and if you give me a job to do, I'm not going to feel as good about my performance in that job as I. Feel if I'm just being myself, right? You're shaking your head like I don't understand that at all. Don't get it. Meanwhile, you are an absolutely beautiful human being, you know? And so you also are like a 10 out of 10, in my mind, as just like a awesome person, but for you, just being a good human is not enough. No. Well, I struggle to understand, then what is enough so to because you are so enough to me just sitting there in your cute little glasses. So then, what is enough? When is it enough? When do you ever earn a 10 out of 10 on the scale?
Cari: Gosh, you know, I think there are times that I do, you know? Yeah, I'm trying to think of like an example, like there are times so I think back. But for me, it's all about like, the accomplishment. That's what makes me feel 10 it's not just living and breathing in the world, but, you know, like, I can experience something and be proud of it, okay? Like, oh, that's it. I feel great. Like I can, I can be on a high like, I think about, you know, going back to our leadership development programs, we, you know, I said we run them annually. So we had one graduate a couple of months ago or about a month ago, and they have to do these presentations at the end, and it's in front of an executive team. And as you know, public speaking is such a fear for so many people, and when I tell you that this group crushed it, I was like a proud mama, and it was like, and my boss and I had this conversation, it was days on end that I felt that that's awesome. But again, it's not just being in the world, you know, yeah, accomplishment. So think of a time like, just sit I mean, you know, I don't, I don't. I'm sure that there are I don't. It's not like I'm constantly in a state of, like, conflict with that, but I can't just like, pinpoint and say, oh, yeah, this day,
Collette: Yeah, you know. So I and two also, you know, you know this, but I just want to clarify. I'm not saying that My way is better. I love my achiever friends because I'm in awe of everything you do like, you're non stop. You're constantly doing something, achieving something, working towards something. And I'm just like, Well, I happen to be too, but not on purpose. I get it. So for you, is it the actual work, or is it the recognition of the work?
Cari: I think it's a combination, because I do love that type, you know, leader development, program development, program management. I love that. But it is also, again, that recognition in my irrational brain, my worth is tied to that. Okay, so if I'm not getting that, therefore the alternative means my worth is not there.
Collette: So what happens to you internally when you because, oh, I I've been on this train too, and I know so many people have this like validation that you don't even realize you're getting or you're needing until you're not getting it anymore, and then you're like, Am I doing a good job? Am I competent at what I do? Who am I if somebody's not telling me that I'm doing a great job or doing something good? So what happens for you when you are not getting the validation, either through your actual work or through recognition from other people?
Cari: Yeah, that's a that's a tough place for me. It that becomes almost kind of the snowball effect and imposter syndrome sets in. And exactly to your point, like, the fear of, why am I not? What is happening? What does this mean? Am I, you know, I mean, I can go zero to doomsday in, like, you know, point, two seconds. Yeah? So, yeah, I can, I can absolutely spiral when it comes to that. And so, you know, the thing about it is, though, I will say, for me, this is an area that I'm so well aware of. I can name it, I can talk about it. So for me, it has gotten a little bit easier to maneuver and to recover from. Like, I don't stay down long, if that makes sense, yeah, I can. I can get myself back up. But it still amazes me at what this little brain can come up with, the things that it can say and do to just destroy any sort of confidence or ego or, you know, whatever. It's amazing. Amazing to me, but I do think through just practice and understanding of it, I do think I've gotten better at the recovery. Yeah, and I don't stay down, as you know, I don't stay down long, if that, if that makes sense.
Collette: So what do you do to cope? Is it that you work harder? Is that you do you ask for what you need? Are you or are you afraid to ask for it because you're not sure it's okay?
Cari: Do you know it's interesting? I had a conversation recently with someone, and I made the comment. I said, I have to advocate for myself here, so I'm learning to do that. I'm learning to say, this is not okay, this is not what I want. This is not working for me. Therefore, I need to shift here, and I need to, because I was like, nobody's going to speak up for me, other than me, right? And so I have gotten a little bit better with asking for what I want. It is very hard for me. It's, it's like there are days and weeks and hours and, you know, all of the things that go into it, from a mental standpoint, one of the things I do as well, you know, I work out that's, that's as much mental health for me as it is physical health. I mean, I really, I don't the physical I mean, obviously I want to stay in shape or whatever, but it is, honestly, to release stress, anxiety, all of those things. So I think that making that a priority is huge for me, and it has to be one of the things that I found out. It has to be part of my life. I can't let that go. If I do, I've done it before, so I know the ramifications of it. So yeah, I can't, I can't let that, I can't let that aspect of it go. So there are some non negotiables that I've kind of put into place. But a lot of it, honestly, is just, you know, you know, I love the Enneagram, so I do, you know, listen to podcasts and things like that. I went to a symposium recently, and just learning about it, kind of going back to my example of my feedback story, having the language, and knowing how it's showing up in my body, what it looks like physically, being able to put a name to it, that's made a huge impact on me. And I feel like I've put effort into that, because it did not come naturally.
Collette: No, yeah, I've seen it. I've seen a change in you. We've been friends for what, 15 years, or, okay, 20 it's over 29 Oh, damn it, Gary. But I've seen even recently, actually, I've seen that in you, and one of the things I love about you is your self awareness. And you're like, damn it, I'm driving myself crazy. And you have this recognition that you are a part of this system and this process. Yes, I'm wondering with your feedback story, did your boss on the first day have any clue what she did to you mentally?
Cari: You know, I'd like to say no, but the fact that she said we thought it would be funny,
Collette: It felt it That's gross, yeah, that is right.
Cari: It's like, it's just like, yeah, it's my very first day. And the thing about it was like, I'd had conversations with her about, you know, I've been in this last job for so long. These people are like my family. And she was like, oh, you know, we'll be like your family too, and blah, blah, blah, and
Collette: Your dysfunctional family. Yeah!
Cari: Absolutely, absolutely. You know, one of the things I thought about too, not necessarily about that story, but like, about feedback in general, and why, like, why it's so like, I don't think anybody just thrives in it. And I was thinking about in the context of when you're younger, if you think about how much, just as a child, as you're learning, how much feedback is thrown at you moment to moment. Don't do this. Do this. You think about in school. Like, I really thought about that, just thinking about this podcast, I was like, why is it, you know? Why is it so hard? And I believe that if you don't receive feedback at an early age, and it's not even appropriate, it's just all of it at once, I feel like that's part of it. I don't know how. I don't know what your what your thoughts are about that.
Collette: I love that you're bringing this up, because I also feel, at least for myself, that that is absolutely what it comes back to. It's this old thing when somebody gives me feedback, or when I know I'm gonna get it, I have this like instant I'm not good enough. There's something wrong with me, you know, inherently not that I can't fix. But you know, as somebody who just likes to kind of be themselves in the world, it means that I can't be myself in the world and still be accepted, still be long. I have to shift a little bit. It to be the acceptable, yeah, presentable me, and it hurts. It does hurt. And I don't mean to, you know, I get by, and I can't imagine what kind of feral person I would be without having taken some of that feedback. And every single time it it's, it hurts,
Cari: Yeah, you know, it has to be rooted somewhere.
Collette: It does. And I agree with you. It's like, you know, we have a six year old, I have a six year old, me and you I have a six year old, and my husband and I, like, I'll hear both of us just constantly, are we giving him feedback when he's quiet and doing absolutely, you know, everything perfect? No, we're like, whoo. Let's take a look at the phone, respond to some texts, whatever. But as soon as that behavior turns into something that's not acceptable, we are all over it. It's obnoxious, it's oppressive. It is. Thank God he has an attitude and a good, strong ability to set boundaries for himself and speak up, because he's really helped us not run him over.
Cari: Yeah, absolutely. You know, I had a conversation with my sister in law recently. I'd spent some time with my oldest niece, and we just had such a great time. And she's just, first of all, she's beautiful, she's kind, she's thoughtful, she's all of those things. And so I was telling my sister in law this, I was just like, I just want you to know, like she's just such a good human being. And she made the comment, she was like, I need to tell her that. More than telling her, did you put your dishes away? Did you you know? Like, she's like, that is such a lesson for me. She's like, I have got to do she needs that kind of feedback, not the kind of feedback that I'm giving. And I was like, yeah, yeah,
Collette: We've learned so much from the time that you and I grew up until now, raising kids, there's a lot different. You know, we're not spanking, we're not we're even timeout is shaming and separating. So if you don't act the way I want you to, then you have to go away from me, and when I feel like you're ready to come back, I'll bring you back into the fold. And there's right, just way that things have always been done for us. It really there is data behind it about why it does doesn't work really well and what else works better, and this positive reinforcement thing of calling out what's good, but it's so hard to put energy into something that's already working when you have so much that's not.
Cari: Yes, yeah. And you think about how that even boils over into like the work environment you think about as being a member of leadership, you don't spend the time on people who are doing well, no, you're not get you're like, Oh, they're good, they'll be fine. I'm not going to worry about them. You're spending the time on your troublemakers, yeah. Oh, that's the parallel of that is interesting.
Collette: It is. And so like, what's the solution? I mean, for for me, this is why open 360 is a thing, and it's why it's employee driven, because it's putting the feedback initiation into the hands of the employee, not the leader, so the employee can say, I need something for me right now, versus wait for you to notice good or something not good,
Cari: Right? But it almost allows them to take their power back. Yeah, you know what I mean.
Collette: And also helps leaders, because leaders don't, you know, like what we're doing now is just peanut butter. Spread your attention to everybody to make sure everybody gets the same amount of attention, but not everybody needs the same thing and the same amount of attention. So if you allow employees to come to you as the leader when they need something, and teach them that it's okay and trust them to do that, then you could be really strategic about how you're using your time with your employees, and making sure that people are getting what they need. They're not all getting the same thing,
Cari: Right, right? Yeah, it's not the same for everybody. To your point, it's just not, no, some people don't need any of it. Some people need more of it. It's just not going to be the same, and it's not a one stop shop. You can't do that. You can't treat everybody the same. So that's part of the struggle too, is people are just like, well, I don't know, you know that means I need to get to know people. I need to actually understand people. I think that's part of the part of the struggle too is, it's almost, I feel like societally, society, society. I feel like we've put that pressure on people like, oh, that's, that's hippy dippy. I don't want all that, that feel that feel good, touchy feely stuff, where it's like, no, I just need to know what motivates you. Yeah, I just need to know how you want to have feedback. I mean, it's not, I think we've, we've just put such a like, it's so difficult or so stigmatized almost, that people are like, Oh, I don't want to do that. I'm scared to ask those questions. I mean, I was in a, I was in a one of our cohort classes, and we had a gentleman that said, I'm not going to ask my employees that we're talking about emotional intelligence. And he was like, I'm not going to, and this is a like, VP level of the company. And he's like, I'm not going to ask my employees. I don't I don't need to know that. And we're like, yes, you do know what. What was your statement? It was just like getting to know somebody to answer like, you know, they were having a bad day or whatever. He's like, Well, you know, I heard something about her kid or and I'm just like, you need to know these things as her leader, like, yeah, you know, that's one of the things that I love about Brene Brown, is she talks about, you know, your whole person shows up at work, yeah. We can't leave the fight with the spouse or the bad traffic or the whatever at the door. It's like we need that ability and permission to be our full selves. And if you, as a leader, can't even, you know, ask me about what's going you know, that's, that's, that's a that's a big misstep. Big.
Collette: It is, it is, and it's tough, because I really think, especially at work, because we've set it up like this, structure replaces skill, so that if you have a leader who doesn't feel confident and doesn't have the skill to have conversations, they will overly rely on some sort of structure that or we as organizations willingly provide to help them limp through, as opposed to gain the actual skill. And it's who's going to say that I can't say that I would raise my hand if I was a leader and say, Hey, I don't feel comfortable talking, having feedback, conversations with my team like that's going to put me out there on the line as somebody who is not equipped to be a leader. And so how will we ever fix this problem if we don't make it okay to not know and don't reward people who are do reward people who raise their hand and say, I need help. Yeah, because I really do want to do this well, right?
Cari: And the thing about it is, it's like, you're not the only one that's feeling that way. No, if one person spoke up, you would have the whole room raise their hand nearly, you know, because everybody feels that way. But to your point, we haven't been, we haven't been given. I mean, kind of, going back to the story that I shared, people don't feel safe, yeah, people don't feel psychologically safe or have trust in organizations or groups or other people or whatever, enough to want to bring that part of themselves forward. Yeah, because for so long, it's been seen as weak, or, you know that you're ill prepared, or, you know, whatever adjective you want to add there, but it's, it's, it's not beneficial to organizations if you're not doing it, yeah.
Collette: And I mean, think about you and I too, just the things if we were not afraid of judgment about who we are as professionals, for the things that we didn't pick up along the way, for the gaps that we have in our performance. To raise our hand and say, you know, I'm really good at what I do, but I need some help in this particular area. Yeah, that's how you get better at things. If nobody raises their hand, then it's going to stay exactly the same.
Cari: Yeah? And I still have that fear. I absolutely still have that fear of being like, I'm going to, you know, like, I don't want to raise my hand. I'm scared to even I was thinking about it. I'm doing some training for a new assessment tool that we're using, and it was online, and they asked a question. I was like, I think I know the answer, but I don't want to say what that in my head, that split second of, what if it's wrong? Blah, blah, blah. I'm just like, Oh my gosh. And finally I spoke up and, you know, whatever, but I'm just like, This is so am i Five? No, it's the same pattern, though it's so just like used to be afraid to raise your hand in school, it's the same thing. It's the same cycle.
Collette: So true, and you just don't realize, well, we do realize now, but it's hard when other people aren't raising their hand and other people aren't saying, I need help, and they're kind of have this professionalism thing down really well, where the facade is strong, you know,
Cari: Yeah. And I think what'll be interesting too, is, you know, as every generation comes along, when everything, when the millennials hit the workforce, it was like, Oh my gosh, what are, you know, and now it's Gen Z and blah, blah, blah. And you just hope that, because there's been so many good things out of a new generation that they're bringing into specifically, and I'll say this selfishly, newer generations want development. Yeah, when you come into an organization, they're like, what's your career planning? What's your development? So that's good. And my hope is that. They also want feedback they're asking for that. My hope is that it doesn't get stifled by, you know, Gen Xers or the baby boomers or whatever, to that they that they move away from it like, keep pushing through that, keep pushing and asking for what you need. It's so important and not to let that, not to let that go.
Collette: I love that, and I think that also requires everybody to be a little bit flexible and saying, Maybe I knew how it worked 10 years ago or five years ago, but I don't know how it works now. So I could use some help with that, and really not stripping people away of the expertise that they do bring for wanting to stay current and stay in touch? Yeah, absolutely. So I have this question for you. Cari, okay, are you ready, of course. So for going back to your feedback story, if you were to have that experience again right now, with the experience that you have with the Mojo that you have right now. Yeah, what would you say to your boss, or how would you handle it?
Cari: That's a great question. So if I'm being honest, I don't know that I would do anything differently, because, gosh, it's one of those things. Like, I want to say I wouldn't do anything differently because I felt so unsafe. Yeah, and like, the whole thing, like, somebody asked me recently, like, what's your biggest regret? Or, you know, what would you do differently? It's like, well, if I did that differently, then I wouldn't be here today. So what you know? So is there something you know I would say, if I would do, if I would do one thing different, I would have at least asked her, Are you open to feedback? Because I will say this, she was telling me a story about when she left the company. She was telling me kind of about her interview process with her new job, and it was kind of like a, almost like a networking event, but like, every person that she was meeting with was asking her kind of the same questions over and over again. And I told her, I said, Well, they're looking for consistency. They're looking to make sure that, just based on my title, you're not telling me something different. And it was such a light bulb moment for her. She was like, Oh, I'm like, that's what they're looking for. And so, you know, I don't know if that how she answered, she obviously got the job, so I don't know how she answered the questions, but I think, I think, you know, because Is she aware of that? You know, she's older than I am. She has more experience than I am. So, you know, it's kind of that old enough to know better, yeah, but I wish I would have at least asked, and that's what the person I was having the conversation with, she's like, do you feel comfortable asking that? And at the time, I didn't, yeah, it was in such a low spot. I just, I had zero confidence in myself and my decision making. I was just like, I have made the worst decision. Why did I ever you know all of the things, but I do wish I would have been brave enough to just say, Are you open to the feedback? Yeah. She would have said, no. You know, that would have been fine and but honestly, like, I don't know what, what I would have said if she'd have been like, sure, yeah.
Collette: Do you think future focused feedback would have helped you there, in terms of you don't have to say you are such a thoughtless human being and what you thought was a joke is really hard for me, but instead saying because this is what we recommend in the future. Yeah, in the future, I would really appreciate it if you gave me notice. I really like to be prepared, and I don't like going into especially my first day, not understanding what's expected of me.
Cari: You know, it's interesting. There were, she was kind of the hiring manager, and then there was another person who I became great friends with, and I did tell her that kind of, after that person had left, we had a conversation about that, and I explained that to her. I was like, You have no idea how bad that wrecked me. I'm like, what you didn't know about me on day one is, I don't like surprises. I like to feel prepared, you know, all of the things, and she was very remorseful about it. She's like, Oh my gosh. And, you know, at the time, she it was just, it was just a joke, you know, yeah, but it's like, you, you don't understand the ripple effect of that. And so she was, she was so kind and thoughtful in her almost apology, you know, it wasn't, but she had, she had a lot of remorse about it. She's like, I never thought about that, but I love what you said, because I think I could have even said, you know, when you think about onboarding people moving forward, and, you know, there are, there's probably, like, a 30 day limit of just like, status quo, that would be beneficial.
Collette: Yes, don't put them on, you know, performance mode on the very first. First day at work, yeah. And I think, too, to your almost to your detriment, Cari, you really are good at powering through to the point where most people would not even consider it's an issue, and so they're not learning from it,
Cari: Right? Yeah. The bad side of that, though, is the physical effects it has on me. Oh, like, the stress and the anxiety and the things like that, the things that I take on you're 1,000% right? I can think of a time that you and I were together and you're like, Oh, I didn't even know you're upset about that. And I can hide it really well, but internally I'm on fire. Yeah, that's the thing. It's like, the finding the the sweet spot of that and the balance of that, yeah, it's great to put on the happy face or whatever, and internally, you're a wreck, and that, you know, that hurts your nervous system and all of the things. So it's like, there's a, there's a price for that, and so to figure out where to let that go, almost.
Collette: Yeah, and this, I think it is the safety thing, because it's almost like you can't, you can't get the repair and the care that you so absolutely need in those moments when people don't know to repair. And it may be, oh, I should know, or you should know, or, you know, I mean, definitely I have friends where I'm like, Okay, you but you should have but if we if you don't speak up, then I do. It strikes me like, for your own self, you're not it's not hurting other people necessarily. It's keeping you from getting the care that you deserve. Yeah,
Cari: That's right, and that that's definitely, like, a something that I'm really trying to work on is to like, be present and be like, no, no, I'm not going to let that slide. I'm going to ask the question, or, you know, whatever. And I'm definitely not an expert at about any stretch, but it's at least in my stream of consciousness. Yeah. So I know that it's it may not, I may not ever act on it, but it's like I'm at least thinking about it. I'm at least aware of it enough, you know what I mean,
Collette: Yeah. And then you are taking care of yourself, yeah? And if somebody else chooses to take care of you or to not take care of you, that's on them, but you're doing what you need to do to get what you need.
Cari: Absolutely, absolutely. Cari, I love you. I'm so on. I'm just, I could just gush over how proud I am of you and all of the things that you're doing. The fact that you would ask me to be on this podcast is like dream come true. I'm so honored. I just I have so much respect for you and the work that you're doing and the human being that you are, and I love you, and I'm just so grateful to be here today.
Collette: Thank you, Cari. I feel absolutely the same. You are beautiful, you are wicked smart, you are fun and funny, and I'm so happy to know you for beyond 20 years, which I can't believe. And seriously, What I appreciate most about our conversation today is that I know you and you really stepped out. I feel like, in terms of vulnerability and sharing. I'm like, blown away by you. Cari, thank you.
Cari: Yeah, thank you. Thank you for creating the space that I feel safe enough to do it. Yeah.
Collette: Well, everybody else who's listening, we will talk to you next week, and hope you have a good rest of your week. Thank you.
